Welcome to Healing is My Special Interest, the newsletter at the intersection of late-diagnosed neurodivergence and healing from high control environments. Today I am so excited to bring back an audio interview/podcast format. Carolyn Baker is the author of Confronting Christofascism: Healing the Evangelical Wound which was released in 2021. I’m so grateful to have this conversation, and for elders like Carolyn who help us name and situate where we are in American political and religious history in a compassionate way. For paid subscribers, please scroll to the end of the post and let me know your thoughts!
“Of course we resist christofascism by speaking out against it and by educating ourselves about other ways to live and be in the world. But I say creating a life of joy and meaning is the best revenge. And it can inspire others that have been traumatized by Christofascism to walk away.”—Carolyn Baker
Below is a transcript, which has been lightly edited for clarity.
DL: Okay, welcome to healing is my special interest the podcast. I'm DL Mayfield. And this is a somewhat sporadic podcast, but we're going to be getting back into it here in the fall of 2023. And I'm so excited today to talk to Carolyn Baker. And I'm going to let Carolyn introduce herself.
Carolyn: Hi there. I'm Carolyn Baker. I live in Boulder, Colorado. And, the reason I'm on the podcast today is I've been asked to talk about my book, Confronting Christofascism, Healing the Evangelical Wound. which I wrote in 2021. And I'm really excited to be here and to talk about this. If you're interested in learning more about me and my books you can go to my website at carolynbaker.net and that's Carolyn with a Y, carolynbaker. net.
DL: Okay. Thank you so much, Carolyn. I also come from evangelical land. It's taken me a while to get to the place where I am able to identify name the patterns I am seeing. And I also experienced as Christofascism. And so I was so happy to find your book because I'm sure you're aware there's not very many books written about this topic and we will get into the why of that. So I am not alone in coming to this topic with a lot of almost internal defense mechanisms that keep us from wanting to engage with this topic. So I just want to name that out loud. Hopefully people listening, like, you know, if you're in a place where you can have this conversation, listen to this conversation, but from reading your book, Carolyn, I know you're very trauma informed and you're coming at this discussion from a really beautiful place and location. So I just want to thank you so much for all that work you've done,
Carolyn: I have to ask you where, where did you grow up? Where did all this happen?
DL: Oh, well, so I was raised a pastor's kid and my family moved around a lot. So mostly in the Western part of the United States. So, California, Wyoming, Alaska, Northern California, and then central Oregon. So. Pretty rural, pretty conservative you know, the pioneer, whatever thing. Yeah, that was, that was my upbringing and now I'm here in Portland, Oregon.
So it's an interesting interesting place to be. I'm very happy to be here. So just for people who are not super aware of these topics, would you mind just doing a little explanation or how you conceptualize both authoritarianism and fascism?
Carolyn: Sure. So, there's a wonderful woman professor of history at New York University named Ruth Ben Ghiat and her last name is spelled B E N G H I A T and she wrote a classic book on authoritarianism called Strong Men Mussolini to the Present and for her Authoritarianism is a way of governing that values order and control over personal freedom. A government run by authoritarianism is usually headed by a dictator. And so we see a lot of that now mushrooming in the world and it's, it's really concerning.
DL: Yeah. And how your book is talking explicitly about Christofascism. So what is sort of your definition of that term? And if you want to talk about where did you find that term? I just be really curious about that.
Carolyn: So Christofascism is the blending of authoritarianism and one's self. interpretation and practice of evangelical Christianity. Now there are other blends of fascism and religion, but I wanted to focus on the one that I grew up in, which is a blend of evangelical Christianity and fascism. And so that's how I define it.
And more and more people, you know, I was one of the first people to start using this. term christofascism. And I'm finding that more and more people in the media are using that term. So I feel gratified by that.
DL: Yes, I mean, that's something I would love to just chat with you about is how have you seen the awareness of this term kind of slowly grow? Now I come from Christian publishing. And I wrote a book even in 2020, it was published that was on the myth of the American dream. I did not even use the term Christian nationalism because I didn't even have that concept in my brain.
DL: But I know that that term has started to become more popularized, but I think the much more accurate descriptor is Christofascism. So I'm curious to see how you've seen that.
Carolyn: Well, I agree with you because it's somewhat accurate to talk about Christian nationalism, but you know, really what it boils down to is fascism, which is, you know, this authoritarian by way of a dictator kind of government. And putting that together with evangelical Christianity, I think really hits the nail on the head.
It's, it's much more descriptive even than Christian nationalism.
DL: Yes, I agree. And I think one thing that people have said to me is if we're talking about fascism and authoritarianism, a helpful thing to do is maybe to also talk about the opposite of that and what democracy is. And I do think many people who were born in America or possibly other countries that really pride themselves on being a democracy.
Again, I feel like there's Even suggesting that maybe it's not as much of a functioning democracy as we want to believe. You wrote in your book, you said, Democracy reveres the sanctity of one's inner authority, and authoritarian religions do not. I just thought that was really interesting because I'm very interested in how Evangelical Christianity primes people for authoritarianism and doesn't prime people for democracy.
So I wondered if you had any thoughts on that or on democracy as a whole.
Carolyn: Sure. Well I agree that we are an imperfect democracy here in the United States. America is a democratic republic. Democracy is essentially ruled by the people, but in a republic, the people rule through elected representatives in a democratic republic. One's inner authority is respected and not interfered with. In a religious authoritarian environment, one's inner authority has to conform to the authority of the state or the religious group. So yeah, you can have your personal opinions in Christofascism, but really those, those need to conform to what the group says, and more specifically to what the group says the Bible says.
DL: Yeah. And
Carolyn: And that's, that's really the difference.
DL: I think it's important to talk about being raised in. Evangelical households or any sort of high control, coercive control religion that puts so much emphasis on obedience, like instant obedience, respect for authority and authoritarianism, how that can shape and prime us to be predisposed towards authoritarianism.
So I'm curious, how was your upbringing? Were you sort of taught? this entire thing of don't trust yourself, you trust a higher authority and all of that.
Carolyn: Oh yeah. My parents and I'm an only child, so it all got dumped on me. Parents are extremely evangelical right wing folks and grew up in the Bible belt of, you know, the Midwest. And I forgot to send it to you, but I have a picture of me when I was five years old with Billy Graham.
Carolyn: So , right at the jump, you know, it's like Bible, you know, and my mother taught me to read and write before I went to even to the first grade. And a lot of the reading came from the Bible. And it's always about this is what God wants. God is the final authority. We can't disobey God. Jesus is his son and we have to accept him as our personal savior. Ask him into our hearts. And then he's watching us all the time to make sure that we don't do bad things. And so we have to obey, obey, obey.
And if we don't, there are consequences, there are punishments. And so that's basically what I was raised on. All the way through.
DL: Yeah, and then I'm just curious how you've seen that in your own life and in other people's lives, how does that allegiance get changed from, we just believe what the Bible says and we just believe God, how does that actually play into political movements like Christofascism?
Carolyn: Right. So you know, you get these people who are telling you that the way we should govern is according to a literal interpretation of the Bible. And so if you're going to follow that literal interpretation, then there are certain things that can't happen, like, you know People can't have sex with whoever they want to, whenever they want to. It has to be within the bounds of marriage, and you have to be a heterosexual person. And you know, inherent in that is the notion that white is the superior race. I mean, that's rarely ever said. But that's the implicit message. And so many of these interpretations, literal interpretations of the Bible are then foisted onto society. And you know, these people decide that this is the way we're supposed to live. And by the way, if other people who don't even believe the way we do don't live that way, then they're bad and we have to control them or maybe even just. You know, get them out of the picture.
DL: Yeah. Oh, yes, exactly. So I think you just did a really good job of sort of taking it from the granular of our parents teaching us to obey the Bible and then showing the ripple effects of that kind of belief if we don't take the time to interrogate how we were raised and how these authoritarian impulses were, you know, I think on purpose instilled in us at very vulnerable ages. And so your book was published in 2021. And the reason I'm talking to you about this today is because I think authoritarianism is on the rise. I think the next year, in between now and the next presidential election, we are going to see a lot of stuff happening that corresponds to authoritarian movements.
And so in your book, you said at this writing in 2021, “I believe that there is no greater threat to democracy than the burgeoning tide of authoritarianism in the United States and throughout the world”. And, and so I, I kind of wanted to ask what you are thinking now in 2023.
Carolyn: Well, I totally, I still believe this. And I believe it much more adamantly than I did when I wrote the book. And since I wrote the book, authoritarianism has only deepened and worsened in the United States, and proliferated more extensively around the world. And that's really, really concerning.
DL: Yes.
Carolyn: know I just, I really see it you know, intensifying. I think that until we can, if it's even possible you know, turn around this, this whole with Donald Trump and the Republican Party. And by the way, I don't even call it Republican anymore, I call it the fascist party. If it were any other party anywhere else in the world, we'd call it the fascist party.
DL: Yeah.
Carolyn: I think until that is turned around, which may take decades we're going to be up against authoritarianism in many different forms.
DL: Yeah. It's hard to hear you say that, but I also am the kind of person where I find relief and, you know, naming what's actually happening. And I feel like that's the only way we can actually move forward is to know this is going to be a long term effort to resist authoritarianism wherever we find it.
And for people like you and me, right, we find it in our actual families. We find it in it. The communities we were born into. It's very personal. And that's why your book is really fascinating to me because you do talk about this political stuff, this social stuff, but you also talk about the psychological impact of Christofascism and how it is traumatizing to people born and raised in it.
And I just want to thank you, first of all, for, for doing that. And I love how much you talk about Marlene Winell, you know, who talks about religious trauma. So, yeah. Do you want to just give us a little overview of how you come at this through this trauma lens?
Carolyn: Well I was a psychotherapist for 20 years and I still do life coaching. And so I'm very tuned into what causes people to become who they are. You know, good, bad, indifferent what makes us who we are. And certainly you know, because of of having to work through my own trauma, and I'm still doing that, by the way having to work through my own religious trauma. I'm very aware of that in other folks, and I'm very interested in What kinds of messages and punishments and constraints are put on children that cause them to not decide because they don't have any choice, but to fall into that authoritarian mold and that subservient mold to follow what they've been taught by Christofascist parents, you know, and Christofascist institutions. That's really fascinating to me, and I was so happy to learn about Marlene Winell's work because she's a clinical psychologist and she had almost exactly the same background I did. She's not L G B T Q, she really, really knows the trauma of that milieu. So,
Carolyn: you know, I, I really want to point people to her work: Dr. Marlene Winell, W I N N E L L.
DL: we can even link in this in the show notes in the transcript that Marlene right now has a really accessible post just on what childhood religious indoctrination looks like. And I think we can add that authoritarianism element on top of even the images she has and and all that. And it's not just the religion, but it's this authoritarian impulse that is also being indoctrinated into us because I never heard those terms childhood religious indoctrination until a few years ago.
Carolyn: Yeah.
DL: And that's exactly what I experienced growing up as a homeschooled pastor's child. And it sounds like you've had some of that as well. Is there anything else you'd like to kind of tell the listener about your background and about your story? Or we can just tell them to read your book because you do a beautiful job of talking about it there too.
Carolyn: Well, please do read my book, but one of the things that has inspired me to write it is that I knew early on that I was gay. And then, you know, it's like I had to really keep that under wraps because it was very clear that that was not acceptable. And you know, in my teenage years, my early college years for me, it was all about, know, fixing that, curing that. And so I had one year of college living near home. So I commuted. But I just continually had this feeling that I needed to get more away from the world. And I needed to go to a Bible college. And somehow that would make everything okay and that would fix me. And so I enrolled in Moody Bible Institute, which is famously called the West Point of Christian Service. That tells you all you need to know, right? and so in my second year at Moody Bible Institute, I became sexually involved with another woman and had to keep that under wraps and we were both doing this, this terrible thing on the down low and eventually she left school and I was left with, you know, being madly in love with her and she was gone and Long story short, I got kicked out of Moody Bible Institute in my second year.
Actually, it was going into my third year came very close to killing myself.
This last week, September the 6th, is my non suicide anniversary.
I celebrated 58 years of being alive on this earth since my, very deep consideration of suicide. I’m amazed that I didn't do myself in, and I’m glad that I didn't. But that’s close you know, I was pushed into death because I didn't see a way to live
DL: yes.
Carolyn: I really was. So that has shaped. All of my life and certainly my story and my relationship with fundamentalist Christianity.
DL: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I am so glad you're here. And it is not lost on me that it is due to your background you know, being gay, all of this has led to you doing the work you do and you're continuing to do and your ability to name systems as hurtful, oppressive, harmful, obsessed with hierarchy, obsessed with following orders without ever asking why.
And so I just want to thank you so much for that. So one thing that people ask me and I'm wondering if they ask you is, you know, as we talk about things like Christofascism, as we critique, you know, people want to know what my relationship is to Christianity. I've made it very clearthat I was an uber Christian up until this last year when I deconverted quite suddenly.
And that's my story and I'm just curious if you want to share with us how you kind of view yourself in relation to religion or Christianity or spirituality.
Carolyn: sure. Yeah, I am. I'm very eclectic. And first of all, in terms of Christianity, I'd like to clarify that there are a lot of forms of progressive Christianity that have made positive impacts on individuals, communities and countries. And by progressive, I mean, humanitarian. Caring, and behaving democratically in the sense that people are loved and cared for, whether they agree with religion or not.
And what I find despicable on the other hand is the efforts made by evangelical Christians to go into other countries in order to convert people to their religion by way of providing food, shelter, clothing, education, and other humanitarian benefits. for the purpose of increasing the number of followers of their religion.
So, progressive Christians enter other countries very often in order to improve the well being of those communities with no expectations that the people they're helping will convert to their religion. They compassionately care for people because that's what the founder of their religion told them to do. And there are many Christians who have a progressive worldview and attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. Two who come to mind are Matthew Fox, who wrote the book, wonderful book, called Original Blessing. And Richard Rohr, who's the author of The Universal Christ. are many others, including African American theologians like Barbara Holmes and Jackie Lewis. I fully support the efforts of these folks. They're not authoritarian at all in their worldview or in their service to the world.
And I encourage people to check out Richard Rohr's organization, The Center for Action and Contemplation. Which I found personally helpful and to which I refer people all the time who want to practice a progressive and inclusive version of Christianity. If you want to find out more about that, go to cac.org. But I must also declare that for many decades I've practiced transcendental meditation, which is based in the Vedic tradition of India. I've incorporated many of the principles of Buddhism into my life and work. I strongly believe, just me, but there's a lot of evidence for it, that Jesus probably spent the years between 12 and 30 in the Far East. And that when he returned to the Middle East, he brought with him many of the teachings that he gleaned in the Far East. So, as I said a moment ago, today my spiritual practice is very much eclectic and an integration of Eastern spirituality with progressive Christianity.
DL: Okay. Oh, wow. So that tidbit about Jesus was very interesting to me. I will maybe email you about that because that's so fascinating. And I'm just aware of my, since my background was a public Christian writer for so long, some people have followed me on this journey. I think we are at a point in American history where so many people are reevaluating their relationship to Christianity. I think that is just happening. And a lot of people don't feel free to do that publicly. A lot of people are doing this privately. But it's a lot, it's a lot of people who are like, I might be done with this authoritarian religion. And I'm here to say the water's fine.
Come jump on in. You can still be a person who is interested in spirituality and faith, but I do think you're so, I just love how you say. We cannot promote in any way, shape, or form authoritarian religion. And the opposite of that is... you know, a humanistic view of life. I'm reading some Dorothy Soelle1. I don't know how to say her last name.
Carolyn: I love her. Yeah.
DL: And she's just like, okay, so you don't want to be a Christian fascist. You better find ways to resist. If you're a Christian, you better be resisting authoritarianism. You resist every demand to obey. You ask why, why, why, why, why? And so I'm like, that's great. That's what I would also say to people who are still Christians.
Okay, you already brought this up a little bit, but something that is just kind of personal to me is that I also think there's a lot of people in this place where they're like, I'm willing to divest from evangelicalism. I see these patterns of Christian authoritarianism, Christian fascism and politics and culture wars.
And I don't want any of that, but I still want to follow Jesus. I'll deconstruct everything, but not Jesus. And this is sort of a thing happening in progressive Christianity right now. And I'm just curious on your thoughts about that, because for me, I just think that's really complicated to talk about without interrogating how Jesus has been used in Christofascism.
Carolyn: Well, Jesus definitely has been used in Christofascism big time. And people who are doing deeper research on Jesus, like Matthew Fox, like Richard Rohr, and many others are realizing, yeah, he was being used. Now let's talk about You know, the facts, let's look more deeply at what really happened with Jesus and what he actually spoke of, you know, the crux of his teaching is in the Sermon of the Mount, which is all about humanity and compassion and love. And it's the part that Christofascists can't stand.
DL: Yes.
Carolyn: Russell Moore, who recently left the Southern Baptist Church after being born and bred you know, has recently talked about how the Christofascists are really sick and tired of the Sermon on the Mount. It's too woozy for them. And, you know, they want the hellfire and brimstone and the Jesus who's gonna, you know, send you to hell and convict you of your sins and blah, blah, blah. There's a wonderful professor at Calvin University in Michigan named Kristen Dumez, D U M E Z, and this book called Jesus and John Wayne, and that's the Jesus, quote unquote, that, that Christofascists are interested in. The guy on the white horse with the sword who's going to come in and send you hell forever, come back after the rapture, the Christian rapture, and destroy the earth. one reason that they don't give a damn about ecology and climate catastrophe because, hey, Jesus is going to come back and destroy the earth anyway, so who cares? And that's the Jesus that has been promoted by Christian fascism, and we need to get beyond that. I believe we really need to look at the more historical Jesus. And go deeper with who he really was.
DL: Yes. So I was obsessed with the Sermon on the Mount. The last book I wrote was on Dorothy Day. And part of the reason I was so attracted to Dorothy Day is because she started her newspaper in 1933. She was very anti fascist. She loved the Sermon on the Mount. So that was like my last ditch effort of trying to be a Christian.
I was like, I'll be an anarchist Catholic. Like, yeah, I'll do that. That
Carolyn: Huh. Right.
DL: was nice for a little bit. But I love how you're saying if people are still clinging to this, like, I want to get rid of everything but Jesus. I agree. We have to look at the historical Jesus because I think most people I'm thinking of are people like me and they do like the Sermon on the Mount.
So they don't see themselves as the Jesus and John Wayne type. But I'm saying this personal relationship with this disembodied voice that you need to obey and check in with and make sure you're in line with like, that's authoritarianism. Like that
Carolyn: Yes.
DL: personal Jesus is authoritarianism. So that's more what I don't see people who come from my kind of background are willing to interrogate that personal Jesus.
And they don't see how that is sort of a part of this whole thing.
Carolyn: Right. Richard Rohr wrote called The Universal Christ. And if you look at that, what he's saying he's really pointing out that the Christ concept of what that really means, like the, the archetype of Christ is in all spiritual traditions. you know, it's like, I don't know how Richard Rohrhas not been kicked out of the Catholic Church, but he hasn't been and, you know, he'll, he'll die still being a Catholic, I'm sure, but boy, he said some really risque things as far as Catholic theology is concerned, and he's really pointed out the Christ archetype in all spiritual traditions.
DL: Yeah. And, you know, going back to Dorothy Soelle, she talks about Christ a lot more than she does God, right? She does not want much to do with this God that demands obedience. So I think there's so many thinkers and writers and theologians that have done this work and it's time to sort of promote them, read them, get back into all of that as we move forward.
And it's just, it's really a relief to me to know there's, there's lots of people doing this work. So. Thank you. As I've been more public about deconverting from Christianity, naming American white evangelicalism as a crystal fascist movement. You know, a lot of times people ask me, how's your relationship with your parents?
How do your parents feel about your work? And I hesitate to ask you that same question because it, it all, it often stops me in my tracks because all of a sudden it becomes extremely personal, and I'm back to being a little kid that really wants. My parents love care and attention and positive regard, right?
So that's, that's where I go back to. The short answer is, you know, my parents are not proud of the work I'm doing currently so I'm just, I'm just wondering if you want to talk a little bit about that at all, and your relationship to your family of origin and this work.
Carolyn: yes. So my parents are both deceased, and you know, it was a very stormy relationship for most of my adult life with them. I would go in and out of periods of being estranged from them, because, you know, I would really, because I loved them,
To be connected with them in some way, and then... Always, always, always the topic of Christianity, Jesus, accepting Jesus as your personal savior, or you're going to go to hell and burn, or my lifestyle, or whatever would come up. And so there was a period of estrangement that was, I'm not sure when it started, that particular one, but around 2016, began to feel. My mother had passed away in And 2016, I started feeling a deep longing to see my dad.
And so I connected with my dad. He had gotten remarried. And He was with a woman who was the same age and had dementia. The woman that he married had dementia. And I could see that he was in a terrible situation because she was declining. He was having to take care of her morning, noon, and night. her son, who was basically supposed to be caring for her was not... his job as far as taking care of his mom. And so there was my dad with this really incapacitated woman, his same age. And he was, he was decompensating physically and emotionally. And. I saw this situation, and I had a choice to make. It's like, am I gonna say, screw you one more time, I don't want anything to do with you and your religion, and walk away, or am I gonna step up to the plate and maybe do something like, you know, Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount?
So I intervened with my dad, and long story short, I, I got him in a nursing home his wife passed away, and he lived yet for another 2016, he lived for another four years, and got really good care because I intervened. I'm really really glad that I made the decision to step up to the plate and be an adult instead of fuck you, you know, you this and you that and you never this and you never that. And so today I look back on it and I'm just really grateful that that I made that decision. I know from my own experience that in the situation that we're in with these Fundamentalist parents, we all carry an enormous load of grief.
DL: Hmm.
Carolyn: I've found that it's very healing and restorative to let myself feel the deep sorrow I've had in my life. It's a profound loss. things we hoped for and needed were not available to us as children and adolescents, they probably never will be, and that's profoundly sad. So I say to other people in thissituation, let yourself weep and mourn over this loss, because it's going to help you heal on a very deep level. And then also become familiar with your parent’s stories. What in their childhoods caused them to be sucked into the Christofascism? What personal wounding that they carry that made it appealing to them? And allow yourself to feel compassion for them alongside your anger at them and your sorrow about what you wanted or still want to have with them. it really does make a big difference.
DL: Yeah, I love that you said all that. And I also, you know, just want to say, I think there's a few complexities, especially for people, if your parents are still alive and if they are still trying to exert control over you and especially, you know, shout out to all the parentified kids, right. Who had to always care about their parents, emotional wellbeing and not their own.
So, you know, there's obviously some complexities there, but your story highlights what I think actually ends up happening much more often, which is people don't go full, no contact. They have periods of low contact. They have periods of boundary setting where you can really heal and grow. And then you can actually make decisions out of your values and judgments instead of that sort of reactive state.
And so I, I think your story really illustrates that. Really beautifully. And I think that's where most people actually are, you know, in their lives.
Carolyn: And I think what's really important for us ultimately, and I think it takes us a long time to get to this place. But ultimately, realize. Because of their wounding, because of their life experiences, could not have been any different. That doesn't make what they did You know, any less harmful or painful for me, but yet understanding that were victims of their parents and their wounding and their circumstances helps me to have some distance and to have some compassion.
DL: Yeah. Well, that's interesting because I think this actually does go into another question I have. But what people in my situation who grew up white evangelical are growing up, having kids, all this stuff. What they tell me is, you know, ever since 2016, a lot of us have been frantically trying to get our people, trying to talk to our parents, trying to talk to our conservative churches.
And sometimes we'll make incremental progress, but then the second, our parents see something on Fox news, they're triggered right back into. I'm scared of the Democrats. I have to vote Republican. All this is scary, you know? And I think we're at this point from 2016, right? It's been enough years now, seven years of just having our hearts broken over and over and over again by people being triggered back to this christofascist place.
A lot of people are saying, what do I do? with my parents? Do I give up hope? How do I engage with people that I have tried so hard, you know, even by talking about Jesus and like they'll seem to track and then their actual political actions, then their actual lived lives don't match up to that. Oh, I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that.
Carolyn: Well, know, as we know, it's very, very difficult to interact with these folks, and sometimes impossible to be connected with people who identify as evangelicals. And, you know, it's like you can't really reason and dialogue with these folks about religion or much about the culture at all. You know, I would just say, take what you can get and give what you can give. do this grief work that you need to do, because this is a profound loss. know, in, other times before, before the advent of fundamentalism, evangelical, fundamentalism you know, people were much more connected with their families. People needed their families much more, You know, today, everything has just gotten so incredibly skewed around this. And it's really natural for us to want those connections. it's really painful when we don't have them. So I would just say, again, let yourself weep and mourn over this loss, because it's going to help you heal on some deep level. And then, know, As I said, learn your parents stories, but then also become active in the world. And, you know, your questions, one of your questions was, how do we do that? And, I don't know. Do you want me to go into that right
DL: Yeah, let's go.
Carolyn: Okay. So, you know, of course we resist christofascism by speaking out against it and by educating ourselves about other ways to live and be in the world. I say creating a life of joy and meaning is the best revenge. And it can inspire others that have been traumatized by Christofascism to walk away. If you're in the LGBTQ community, take action in that community against Christofascism. pro choice groups in your community. Take action with minorities in your community to promote racial justice and nonviolence. Take action against groups that want to ban books and keep our children ignorant and compliant. You know, take action. That's why I love the name of Richard Rohr's organization. The Center for Action and Contemplation. need both.
DL: I love that. Growing up in an evangelical home, a lot of the headlines are really Triggering to me, right? Because they bring me right back to this is my actual family.
This is my community. What do I do? How do I fix this? How do I stop this? When really, I don't have the power to do any of that. And so I think it's been really good for me to hear from people who say, the headlines are dire. We should be concerned and we do need to organize, but it happens at that local level.
It happens that your actual life in your actual city. I, in my own city, I live on the outskirts of Portland. We live kind of close to a more conservative place. In 2020, we had to show up against explicitly fascist people who had guns, who were, You know, like, this is probably coming to many, many towns, right?
People protesting drag shows, libraries, all this. And so it's the local. Where this can really become a grounding and centering practice, right? If, and I think sometimes the national can get very overwhelming.
Carolyn: really overwhelming, yes. Yes.
DL: Yeah. And I guess one of my last questions, cause I want to be respectful of your time is sort of about the terminology and people's awareness of these political movements. Now you said you call. The Republican Party, the fascist party.
Carolyn: Right.
DL: How does that go for you if you're talking to people you know, who maybe are Republican or have family members who are?
Carolyn: Well, I don't talk to those folks very often, but I wouldn’t say the fascist party to their face. You know I, I'd use more, you know, more carefully thought out language. No, I, I wouldn't do that. Truly, I think we have to be aware that that's what we're dealing with. And, you know, in, in Christofascism, in the book, I talk about during the Third Reich, when Hitler was in power, there was a Christian Third Reich church, that was completely supportive of Hitler.
If you talk to any of those people, they would never say, Oh, I'm in favor of a holocaust of killing six million people. Oh, I, you know I support everything that Hitler does. But they really thought they were good Christians, because they were what they were being told the Bible said, right?
And so just have to be very sensitive and very careful, do our activism where we can do our activism, and then just be very discreet and wise in our dialogue with Christofascist people themselves.
DL: Yeah. And I, so I think you've sort of already answered this and I actually really appreciate it in your book. You said social media is a great place where we can be open and call things what they are, use the term Christofascist, you know, and I, I appreciate that. I just have also like really stuck on what you said about Living your like a meaningful life that resists authoritarianism as like the best defense because that's definitely a question. I get is, you know, how do we interact with people in our lives who are kind of caught up in it, but can't seem to call it that. And I think yeah, I'm just going to be thinking about what you said
Carolyn: Okay.
DL: because. you know, as somebody who is non binary and who has kids who are gender nonconforming, right, it does sometimes feel like this is panic mode. This is, you know, my people are in the crosshairs, right, of this. Christian fascist movement. We are the other but I do know, I just feel so much better. Even talking to people like yourself, right.
Who are doing this work, who are showing me that we can resist with our lives and we can actually, you know, have good lives in the midst of that. So I guess that leads me to my last question, which is. You know, is there anything that's making you hopeful for the future?
Carolyn: Well, to be honest, I'm not sure that I am hopeful for the future. I'm certainly not hopeful about the climate catastrophe and the ways that corporate capitalism continues to increase the chances of human extinction as a result of human caused climate catastrophe. However I'm inspired by the resistance to Christofascism that I do see all around me. And by people like yourself who are asking the right questions. I would just say, you know, if you've been wounded by Christofascism, commit yourself to your healing process.
If you want help, I'm a life coach and spiritual counselor, and you can connect with me at my website, carolynbaker.net. Or start or join an online group of people recovering from Christofascism. Check out the work of Dr. Marlene Winnell. also, there's another resource that I did not mention, but I want to bring it to your attention. Global Center for Religious Research, GCRR.org, specializing, like, very much like Marlene Winell, in religious You can take certification courses there to work with religious trauma. It's a wonderful educational resource for folks like us. So deepen your appreciation for secular life in a secular world. Enjoy your life and treasure your precious humanity.
DL: Oh, I love that. What a great way to end. I believe that's how I found out about your book because my partner who's a therapist was taking some classes and he's like, Oh, this person's talking about everything you've been jabbering about.
So I thought, no way. So that's how I found out about you. So, yeah.
Carolyn: Yeah.
DL: Yeah, that's so great. Well, thank you so much, Carolyn, for taking the time to come and chat. You also have a YouTube channel. You talk a bit more about the climate change stuff on there. Anywhere else people can find, I mean, you already mentioned your website.
Carolyn: well I have a Facebook page of course. And then I have an Amazon page. If you go to Amazon and put my name in, you'll see all the books I've written, which are. Quite a few. And then of course, Confronting Christofascism, it's now on Audible. So, there we
Carolyn: thank you for having me today.
DL: Yeah. And I, you know, I feel like your book is going to be one of those who fortunately, unfortunately is going to get more and more read hopefully as things continue to reveal themselves. So thank you. So thank you so much and have a great rest of your day.
Carolyn: You as well. Thank you.
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Soelle is pronounced “zuh-lay” evidently?
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