What a lovely lovely conversation. Somehow as comforting as it is sobering. Just the title of Carolyn’s book “Confronting christofascism: healing the evangelical wound” is such a perfect invitation. Yes. I can’t wait to check it out.
I loved the discussion on terminology. There is such courage, freedom, and release in accurately naming things. Like, you really have to wrestle the name to the ground, and the struggle isn’t merely to understand but to find the courage (I, a mere human, with an extremely reactive nervous system!) to desecrate a god. But once you’ve named it, once you’ve desecrated the god, you find loses all the power it once had over you. It’s just a human invention, and I also am human and can choose a different way.
The conversation on Jesus as well...there is sooo much I would love to talk about. When you grow up in authoritarian religion I think often (definitely for me) a sustaining and nourishing spirituality grows up side by side with this authoritarian god. It’s sort of a survival mechanism. And you fear if you abandon the god, you will lose the spirituality that has nourished you. But I’ve found abandoning god has given room for this spirituality to grow into a fuller maturity. And for me, that strain of continuity, of a nourishing spirituality does center on Jesus.
But I also think it’s necessary to find language that desecrated the christofascist god--which requires theological creativity and and a deep commitment to oneself (how would I articulate my belief if I wasn’t afraid of losing everyone--every time I ask myself this question the space of this nourishing spirituality opens up and I can feel at home in my body). One articulation that has risen from asking myself this question, is “I’m not going to say I believe in the resurrection, because I can’t imagine it. When I try, all I see is a christofascist white man--and I don’t believe in that guy. I’m not going express my allegiance to Christianity by saying ‘I believe Jesus rose from the dead’ when our cultural imagination of power is so contaminated with violence. But I will labor toward resurrection, by embracing the way of the human Jesus with the hope that Rome’s violent power to crush all that is beautiful isn’t the final say.”
Thanks for this wonderful conversation, DL & Carolyn. Hearing Carolyn’s journey with her parents was very comforting and also inspiring to just continue the work of healing and grieving. So good!! 🩷🩷 live with joy & treasure your precious humanity!
This was so, so good! I wish I had something more insightful to say in response, but I'm still chewing on all the valuable insight in this post. Thank you, D.L. and Carolyn!
Hey! This is such an important topic. Thanks for doing this interview. I just released a punk album called “Dolly For President” where in addition to trying to build a movement to get Dolly Parton to run for president, I have several tracks that try to kick christofascism in the balls as hard as possible. Here’s a link to one called “p*ssy grabbing Bible thumping white men.” https://spotify.link/0qgyAQ2LdDb
There’s a bunch of songs on the album that I think would really resonate in the ex-evangelical world. So if you’d ever like to talk about them, I’d be super down to do so.
What a lovely lovely conversation. Somehow as comforting as it is sobering. Just the title of Carolyn’s book “Confronting christofascism: healing the evangelical wound” is such a perfect invitation. Yes. I can’t wait to check it out.
I loved the discussion on terminology. There is such courage, freedom, and release in accurately naming things. Like, you really have to wrestle the name to the ground, and the struggle isn’t merely to understand but to find the courage (I, a mere human, with an extremely reactive nervous system!) to desecrate a god. But once you’ve named it, once you’ve desecrated the god, you find loses all the power it once had over you. It’s just a human invention, and I also am human and can choose a different way.
The conversation on Jesus as well...there is sooo much I would love to talk about. When you grow up in authoritarian religion I think often (definitely for me) a sustaining and nourishing spirituality grows up side by side with this authoritarian god. It’s sort of a survival mechanism. And you fear if you abandon the god, you will lose the spirituality that has nourished you. But I’ve found abandoning god has given room for this spirituality to grow into a fuller maturity. And for me, that strain of continuity, of a nourishing spirituality does center on Jesus.
But I also think it’s necessary to find language that desecrated the christofascist god--which requires theological creativity and and a deep commitment to oneself (how would I articulate my belief if I wasn’t afraid of losing everyone--every time I ask myself this question the space of this nourishing spirituality opens up and I can feel at home in my body). One articulation that has risen from asking myself this question, is “I’m not going to say I believe in the resurrection, because I can’t imagine it. When I try, all I see is a christofascist white man--and I don’t believe in that guy. I’m not going express my allegiance to Christianity by saying ‘I believe Jesus rose from the dead’ when our cultural imagination of power is so contaminated with violence. But I will labor toward resurrection, by embracing the way of the human Jesus with the hope that Rome’s violent power to crush all that is beautiful isn’t the final say.”
I love all of this so much. Thank you for sharing it. It gives me hope that people can talk and write about Jesus in this kind of thoughtful way.
So so beautifully said! Thank you.
Thanks for this wonderful conversation, DL & Carolyn. Hearing Carolyn’s journey with her parents was very comforting and also inspiring to just continue the work of healing and grieving. So good!! 🩷🩷 live with joy & treasure your precious humanity!
This was so, so good! I wish I had something more insightful to say in response, but I'm still chewing on all the valuable insight in this post. Thank you, D.L. and Carolyn!
Hey! This is such an important topic. Thanks for doing this interview. I just released a punk album called “Dolly For President” where in addition to trying to build a movement to get Dolly Parton to run for president, I have several tracks that try to kick christofascism in the balls as hard as possible. Here’s a link to one called “p*ssy grabbing Bible thumping white men.” https://spotify.link/0qgyAQ2LdDb
There’s a bunch of songs on the album that I think would really resonate in the ex-evangelical world. So if you’d ever like to talk about them, I’d be super down to do so.
this is so cool, I look forward to listening to the songs!
Thanks for listening!
This is so good. Thank you! I had started a chart for comparing fascism, christian nationalism, covert narcissism, etc. and this is so helpful!
Good conversation thank you both!