Hello and welcome to Healing is My Special Interest. After a long break, I am back with a podcast interview with the one and only Kandi Zeller! Kandi is a fantastic writer and thinker and has been a part of this community for quite some time — and she released an excellent book just a few months ago! Kandi and I chat about accessibility, appropriation, religious trauma, whimsy and a whole lot more. You can listen to the podcast here or read the transcript below. If you appreciate content like this, consider becoming a paid subscriber and join our awesome community.
For more information on the spoon theory of disability, go here.
You can subscribe to Kandi’s substack here:
You can buy her book / see some excerpts here.
Moon Phases and Spoon Phases: An interview with Kandi Zeller
This interview has been edited slightly for clarity.
DL: Hello and welcome to Healing is My Special Interest the podcast. I haven't felt like doing a podcast in a minute because there's just been a lot of change, a lot of transition in my own life and in the world at large. And as many of you know, I've been working hard on my STRONGWILLED project!
But as we are going to some new content, especially around Pagan and witchy kinds of stuff, I think this is a great time to start interviewing people again. And I couldn't think of anyone better to start with than Kandi Zeller. Kandi has already been a part of this Healing is My Special Interest community in the comments, sharing her wisdom.
She also has an incredible Substack called All the Threads. And I actually know Kandi in a few other ways -- Kandi, you have been a developmental editor over at STRONGWILLED for me, and you've just done incredible work. And then here we are. You wrote a book about not just witchcraft, but disability and witchcraft. So, wow. That's a long intro to say, hi, Kandi. It's really good to see you and it’s really good to talk to you today.
Kandi: Thank you so much, D. L. It's really great to be here. I'm honored to have this conversation and I want to say just a quick note about STRONGWILLED : this has been an amazing project to work on. It's been really validating for me as someone who grew up under religious authoritarian parenting methods, but also just to see the work that you're putting out into the world and how it is helping so many people process. And I'm really excited about that project.
DL: Well, thank you. You're an amazing developmental editor which is a part of your work you do in the world. I was just wondering if you could tell people who are listening real quick, you know, a little bit about who you are, the work you do, and kind of a little bit, I guess, going into the book, but we'll get into that more too.
Kandi: Yeah, so my little spiel that I'll often say is that I'm a writer and editor at the intersections of spirituality, creativity, and justice, and, what that means is it means a lot of little things gathered together, which is like the most ADHD way I could describe what I do.
DL: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Kandi: So I have my Substack, All the Threads, where I take what is usually a special interest and frame it as a spiritual practice, but specifically it's from a secular perspective so that anybody who, whatever spiritual path or non-spiritual path you're on, those rituals are for everybody.
Toward that end, I wrote a book last year called Disabled Witchcraft and it came out in September through Microcosm Publishing, which is also the place that I work, my day job. I'm an editor for Microcosm and Microcosm specializes in DIY books about sex ed, books about justice, zines, they have a queer erotica series.
It's great. And so my life is a lot of little pieces gathered together in a rainbow of chaos, but I do love it.
DL: Yes, and what's interesting is that I knew you through Substack, right? And through your writing there and, and your commenting here on Healing is My Special Interest. And then I found out you worked at Microcosm, which is like one of my dream publishers. They put out really cool independent books, and I was like, I can't believe this convergence. Now I know somebody who works there! It's still a pipe dream of mine.
And maybe we can get into your experience being disabled and publishing a book, because now that I know I'm autistic and I've published three books, I just don't want to do it again which is why I'm putting all my energies into Substack. But there's also drawbacks to this platform too. So maybe this is a tangent, but how has it been for you publishing this book?
Kandi: I love this tangent. So because, and it's especially relevant because how I found your work originally, I think it was like I was listening to Prophetic Imagination Station podcast episodes a long time ago. And then I saw you starting to write publicly about Christian publishing, which is where I got my start.
And I just found so much resonant in your story with my experience within Christian publishing and I have many, many thoughts about publishing. I didn't know I was neurodivergent when I was in that space, and I have so many thoughts about that. But as far as my book goes, I'm really lucky because at Microcosm, it's a very neuro spicy staff. So I felt very seen and everybody was like, we could be direct and it was very us versus problem, not us versus each other as we worked out to make the book the best it could be. As far as the experience individually of publishing a book while dealing with disability it just meant a lot of working when I could on the project and assessing my spoons throughout the whole time. Microcosm was great and they gave me a lot of time and space that I needed and I was really lucky. And I know that's not everybody's experience with a publishing a book.
DL: Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm so happy to hear that that has been a good experience. You know, I would sort of assume that from, yeah, just from the books they've put out and I know that there's various neurotypes on staff there. So I'm so happy to hear that. Now, I feel like I am coming to your work on witchcraft at a time where I can finally digest it, if that makes sense?
I've known you were into sort of witchy things. I knew you were writing about tarot cards. And it's just like the information would just wash over me, right? I wouldn't really understand it. Maybe because my own experience, right, is coming out of high control religion, and wanting nothing to do with spirituality or religion for quite some time.
And the few experiences I've had with sort of witchy pagan people, I was sort of like, why are you pressuring me to read into things that I don't want to do? You know, that's not on them. That's just me, right? That was my sort of, automatic response for awhile. Now I'm in a place where it's very meaningful to me and I'm having a lot of fun exploring [witchy thing] and it feels very in line with autonomy.
But I'm wondering for people listening if they might be in the place I was a few years ago where it's like, I don't understand people who are getting into this witchy stuff. What does it mean? Who is it for? And I just want to say, in the very beginning of your book, the first sentence is “Witchcraft is for everyone.”
So I just wondered if you might want to expand on that just for a second for everyone listening.
Kandi: Yeah, absolutely. So when I was in my process of de-converting from conservative evangelicalism, I was doing a lot of pondering about what I wanted in my life. I'm somebody who basically as I was exiting that world, I was doing a lot of spiritual practices and I was really drawn to the nature based kind of ones.
And witchcraft just – I was, I was a big theology and religions nerd. No one is surprised. And as such, I would read the Handbook of Denominations in the United States which is an encyclopedic work about that kind of stuff. Like for fun, I would read that for fun because I am a nerd and totally, I'm totally neurotypical, I don't know what you're talking about!
But in that process I had heard about witchcraft and aesthetically I found it very beautiful. Like there's a lot of – I describe my personal style as Ms. Frizzle meets Morticia Adams. And because of that, there was that draw to it. And I noticed in all of my research about different spiritual paths that it was the most flexible. Especially since I didn't know what I was going to hold on to and I just wanted to do something that felt beautiful.
And it was basically a mix of whimsy and autonomy for me. Now, here's the thing about witchcraft, just like any spiritual path, there are absolutely very prescriptive traditions. There's gatekeeping just like anything else. But for me, I just came to the path very much as a soul practitioner, doing what felt good to me and what made me feel connected to the earth and just a general sense of love and the cosmos.
And I know that sounds very oohy and ahhy. But basically, it was just how can I, in my very particular way, infuse whimsy into my life? And intention, because I'd always had intention in my life.
For instance, I would always be super intentional about what the earrings I wore. And I've got headphones on, so I didn't get to do that today. But putting those little bits of symbolism and finding meaning through some of the chaos of life. I mean, that's rambly, but the short version is witchcraft was a flexible path that I knew would be able to walk with me through the changes I was experiencing. Because these days I consider myself an agnostic. Some days atheist feels right. Some days it doesn't, but witchcraft allowed me to have that flexibility.
DL: Wow. I love this. I also seem to vacillate between atheist and agnostic depending on what is feeling right for me. And yet I've totally started to do some practices that seem to match up with witchy things. So I'm really resonating with your story. I also – the word intention meant nothing to me before and now it's really important.
I'm doing a lot more things with these intentions. And I think that's just a really nice thing I've been learning through my experience trying out some rituals and things is, it's all just for me and I infuse things with the intention I want. And I don't know, it's, it's very empowering. Right? And we're going to talk a little bit more about some of the hangups people might have with this, but you even go a step farther.
So not only are you talking about how witchcraft is for everyone, your entire book is about how disability intersects with witchcraft to upend the dominant cultural norms and that really resonated with me as someone who has been writing about how annoying dominant culture is for a very long time and as somebody who was born into, you know, a high control patriarchal religion.
So I'm just going to read something you wrote. Again, this is like at the very beginning of your book. And you say, “To be disabled is to resist by your very existence. My disabled body smashes ableist assumptions in all spiritual spaces. In fact, I believe disability is itself a form of witchcraft. Why? Because I personally define witchcraft as anything that connects me, or others in a transformative way to divine love and community.”
And I just thought, wow, that is what I want. And it doesn't have to be connected to a deity but being connected to myself, community, and the earth is to me what I am calling witchiness or paganism. So thanks for that.
Kandi: Yeah, and it's so interesting too, because when I talk about divine love, and I don't know if I ended up getting into this in the book, because I was writing this like a year ago when I was kind of starting to get away from using the term “divine”. But when I think about the divine, I don't know what I think. But I wanted it to be an inclusive term that could just mean we as humans, or as a collective, we as a collective of all living things, and everything in the universe.
That's kind of what I was thinking. So, yes, disability is witchcraft in my view because it does transform systems because it doesn't let those systems stay the same. Capitalism really would suffer if more of us were able to take up space and get our accommodations. My disabled body does not allow me to work a traditional 9 to 5 job where I go into the office.
I am here in my cozy very neurodivergent-friendly office. And there's a door that shuts, and I spend most of my day editing quietly. And that helps me not get migraines. That helps me have the time I need to process things somatically during the day. I like to dance during the day and take breaks. And also allows me to look out the window and be quiet in nature.
And I think that's something all human beings need, but my body and the way it functions has way fewer spoons than an average person.
DL: Wow. I really love that. So you said you come from a sort of similar background to me. What was the flavor of the religion that you were born into?
Kandi: Yeah, so I was born among a certain type of dispensationalist Baptist. I was born into a general association of regular Baptist church. And then we ended up at various unaffiliated Bible churches. And so basically what it amounts to is the Baptist flavor of fundamentalist. There was a dash of the charismatic in there, just a dash, but I'm mostly a little bit closer on the like Pentecostal to Duggar like continuum, I'm a little closer to Duggar than Pentecostal, if that makes sense.
DL: Okay. Yes, it does. Perfectly. Wow. Okay. And so then If you're closer to the Duggar end of things, right, we can obviously sort of assume some patriarchal, hierarchical religious trauma things. How has exploring paganism or witchcraft been beneficial for you as somebody who's a survivor of religious authoritarianism?
Kandi: Yeah. I mean, it's the autonomy piece, right? Because religious authoritarianism, and fascism in general, wants to take away choices. And the autonomy that a path like this afforded me was crucial to my healing. It was sort of like, well anchor sounds too solid. It was just sort of like, it was a companion.
Witchcraft was a companion that allowed me to practice autonomy because I had been told that obedience was the ultimate good. And my body still believes that sometimes, but being able to practice something so decentralized and autonomous was really, really, really good for me for developing as a human being and as a person.
DL: For some reason, as you just said that about obedience was the highest good, that really resonated with me. Like in my body, I still have these feelings. Like the only way to be safe, right, is to be a part of a group or an organized religion you know, historical institution and you don't really get that from pagan practices or witchcraft as much, right? There's a grounding that I experience, but it's not like, this will keep me safe for sure. Right? This will make me good for sure. I don't know if you want to sort of talk through that, because maybe that's a hang up people like us can experience.
Kandi: So witchcraft -- especially modern witchcraft as we know it today -- really celebrates both the whimsical and the macabre, the shadow side and the not shadow side. So basically, it's a practice that requires some acceptance, and part of the reason I picked witchcraft was I wanted to explore the things that fascism had made taboo, and exploring witchcraft that also freed me up to explore my queerness.
DL: Mm. Mm hm.
Kandi: And so basically, because I did a lot of research on the history of modern witchcraft, which as we know today is a pretty new path. But the idea of a nature-based practice is not a new path. Witchcraft historically, as it shows up in documents, is about when marginalized people were sort of singled out and were called witches.
It was a demonization strategy. And I like witch as both a political and religious reclamation of the experiences of queer ancestors before me. And so that's what it comes down to. There's a connection to my fellow marginalized human beings while also connecting us to nature – nature, the thing that will outlast fascism.
DL: Oh, I mean, I think there's a reason why I am starting to get into this now. I think a lot of people are also on the hunt for some practices and rituals we can do that are not connected to a patriarchal authoritarian religion as that becomes more prominent in our politics and in our, in our leadership.
It makes sense to me why there's this movement happening. And that is something I wanted to ask you about. I went into a Barnes and Noble the other day, and one of the main displays was all tarot card decks and books on witchcraft. And I was like, oh, if capitalism's catching on to this, this must be happening, right?
And I don't mean that to disparage everyone who writes books or sells tarot decks. But you know what I'm saying? If they're displaying it prominently, it means it's selling. It means it is happening. People are buying it because they're very interested in these practices. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this becoming more popular right now.
Kandi: I think the reason we're seeing this is witchcraft is about both autonomy and beauty. Tarot cards are objectively art. They're gorgeous. And it's one of the few ways in our capitalistic system where we can support art. People who might not otherwise have a voice. I'm noticing a lot of very good diversity representation -- it's not as good as it should be, but it is improving within the oracle deck and tarot deck spaces. Even just in the art, I'm noticing more and more tarot decks having diverse characters of experience and background, BIPOC individuals being represented, disabled individuals being represented within those cards, queer people. There's a great tarot deck, and I don't remember who the author is, but it's called the Queer Tarot, it's lovely. And I think basically this interest is coming from how we're not feeling as much autonomy with our leaders being what they are, and the policies that they put out there.
There's so much that's being policed about our bodies and the bodies of our loved ones. So witchcraft allows us both that autonomy and beauty. And beauty is just so good for the human brain. Tarot in particular is so closely related to archetypes because the major arcana of the tarot is the fool's journey. And so there's a story there and humans need narrative. That's really important for human brains.
DL: That's so interesting. That's what they always told me in Bible college, right? Humans need a story. And that's why Christianity is the only true story and the best story. And I think tarot cards are an interesting take on this -- maybe we could camp out on this just for a minute. Because for me, I do have a charismatic background, and I was really not into tarot cards and my friends trying to do readings for me. I just thought, no. I don't want anyone to tell me anything. I don't want to have to agree with a silly old card. And then eventually when I started doing it for myself, I bought a very whimsical deck, and just started doing it for myself and having a lot of fun.
And it was very pleasant. You know, this is not what I expected the occult to be like! It's just like silly and whimsical and pretty low stakes. And that was what I needed. So maybe on that continuum of macabre to whimsical, I bought a tarot deck that was very whimsical and that's what I needed.
And I have friends who love the very macabre ones and find a lot of meaning in using them. So I just think it's really cool that you even brought up these connections. A lot of this is about paying attention to what you like and what you need and going for that. Right? And I just think, man, that's something I've been missing in my life and it feels really good to kind of be in control of that.
Kandi: Hell yeah. I love that for you. And also, yes, that is what happened with me. Because, again, I'm very secular in my witchcraft practice. Tarot cards to me are archetypes and they are prompts to get in touch with my own intuition. And specifically, I'm the one that makes meaning out of those cards.
So like, if a card's not speaking to me that day, that's fine. I can draw another one. It's not, and to me, as somebody who in my growing up community, there was a lot of fear around witchcraft and demons and stuff. And for me, it was like exposure therapy. It's like, listen, there's no demons in these cards.
It's just a card. It's a card with a pretty picture on it. If you don't like it, you can put it back in the deck. Nothing bad is going to happen to you.
DL: Right. And it's just interesting. I'm reading Talia Levine's book, Wild Faith, where she's talking about how the Christian right is trying to take over America. She has a few chapters on prophecy in American culture, and how destructive it's been. And so for me, I just know, this is a part of my own heritage and background, being raised with a parent who's really into Christian prophecy.
And that's not what any of this is. This is totally different. And sometimes I know that religious trauma can come up for those of us raised charismatic, raised Pentecostal, raised in a place with prophetic utterances. Sometimes that can get triggered when you are trying these practices.
Right? And I think for me, it's just been helpful to know this is a part of the American white Protestant background. And it's a chance for me to sort of sit with that instead of trying to heal it or override it. I don't know. For some reason, tarot has been a great practice for me for dealing with that stuff.
Kandi: I mean, same. And I love that. I love talking to other folks who that is the case with. And, yeah, Tarot is beautiful. And I mean, I literally, I have a whole section of the book about Tarot. So there's that.
DL: It's great. Okay. Let's talk a little bit more about your book because I love how there's a bunch of different sections in the book. So depending on what you're feeling, maybe you want to learn a little bit more about certain practices. Maybe you want to, you know camp out on something.
There's stuff about the moon cycles, the major holidays. If you want to get into tarot, say you have a deck and you pull a major arcana card, you could go to your section in the book about that card and kind of sit with that. It's so cool because there's a lot of different entry points you put into your book and it feels very accessible and very friendly to, you know, a baby pagan. And later on, I'm going to ask you some advice you have for baby pagans, but for now, how did you get to the point where you're like, I want to write a book about disability and witchcraft and make it accessible to sort of newbies?
Kandi: So it's kind of an interesting story how that even happened. My beginnings in Christian publishing was in Christian devotional public publishing.
DL: No! And look at you now. This is incredible.
Kandi: That’s a whole story, probably outside the scope of this particular conversation, but I could talk about that for a long time.
But I actually was the founding editor of Unlocked, which is a Christian fundamentalist teen devotional publication that had multi genre themes. It was the sister publication of Keys for Kids, which I was the editorial assistant of for years. And basically my job back then was to gather basically anthologies and make these really cool spiritual entries that had questions at the end for discussion.
And me being my queer, whimsical self, I would sometimes bring queer voices in. And you know, in Christian publishing. That's not super smiled upon.
DL: Nope.
Kandi: And as that time went on I had been dealing with disability my whole life. I just didn't know that that's the name, but the stress of that and figuring out who I was just started to really weigh on my body. And I made my exit out of that side of Christian publishing and then I just started doing freelancing.
And during that time, I was like, you know, I do still want to write a book and my experience is with devotional books. So hey, what if I wrote a 90 day devotional book about disability and church history figures?
Because again, I'm a nerd about that stuff. So I was like, oh, this could be fun. So I pitched that somewhere, and it wasn't accepted. And then I kind of shelved the project and started writing. I was in the process of de-converting at that point. And I was just kind of like, okay, we'll keep going. And then I stopped into a bookstore and I found this really cool enamel pin. I noticed it was produced by this place called Microcosm. I went, oh, it looks like they sell books. Let me see what their pitch guidelines are. Because again, I worked in acquisitions in my previous publishing roles. And so I was like, I'll just see what they're looking for.
And they were looking for witchcraft books with kind of unique takes and there really aren't any books about disability and witchcraft. And so I was like, I think I could take what I had worked on in that previous book proposal while I was still looking to publish within Christian publishing and I could make this witchy.
Because by that point I'd been practicing witchcraft for a while. And so I made a little outline because that is what I had done hundreds of times in my Christian publishing journey. And it was essentially a devotional book, but for witches.
DL: Wow. This is astonishing. Because now that you're saying that I'm like, it kind of is!
Kandi: And that's the thing, the projects that I'm looking to do in the future, because I do have a few more books in me, I think, and they tend to be sort of like devotional books, but for people who are exvangelical, basically. Now obviously Disabled Witchcraft is not specifically an exvangelical book, but I do address exvangelicals pretty overtly in the book because that's my journey and a lot of my disabilities relate directly to religious trauma.
I've always loved the art of devotionals but not the Christo-fascism part of devotionals.
DL: Dude, this is like, blowing my mind because the devotional genre . . . there's so much to get into there about sort of forcing people to feel a specific way and kind of like, hurry up and feel better and be in the role you were assigned at birth, and keep going and, you know, all those things.
And so this is so different. It's like, here's how you survive Christo-fascism, right? That's more how I view your book. I was wondering if you in particular have a favorite section of your book that you feel like, oh, this is one of the ones I loved writing or that is the closest to my own spiritual practice.
Kandi: This is such a tough question because it's about equal, but I think the thing that flowed out of my fingers most easily, and this is not a surprise because in my early years, I was developing art activities within those devotional publications. So the section about artistic rituals was really easy to write because that's one of my favorite ways to regulate myself.
So it was a lot of just, this is literally something I do to be creative in my life. And I remember as I was writing the book and on the days when I was feeling, oh, I have a lot to do, I would focus on the artistic rituals and make sure some of those were in my rotation for that day's writing. Just because the somatic experience of creating something, especially things that are sort of like patchwork and multicolored, I don't know, that's always drawn my eye, and there's something about that that helps me feel so grounded. Which is very much part of my witchcraft journey. So the artistic rituals, if I had to pick just one.
DL: Yeah, and I think one thing that's been interesting for me to be on this journey is when I read books like yours, or, you know, even if I watch some witchy TikToks or whatever, there has been this really interesting realization like, huh, I'm already doing some of this stuff, right? And I bet people listening to this right now, I bet you're already doing some of this stuff.
Like, when I found out that there's such a thing as taking a witchy bath, you know? And infusing intention and ritual into your bath. First of all, my oldest child literally takes a bath every day to regulate. And always uses Epsom salts, always uses lavender, always uses these witchy things, do you know what I mean?
Kandi: Yes.
DL: We're already putting crystals in the water. We're using lavender in it. Like this is a fricking ritual. If you ask me, you know, and I do it probably like several times a week, honestly, and I feel so much better after I take a bath. This is a thing! This is a whole thing that people do.
And I've been doing it my own way. And now I can infuse even a little bit more intention into it. It's not like I make it that much more different. Does that make sense? I think people will discover that as they read your book. It's like, oh my God, I'm already doing some of this stuff, you know?
Kandi: That’s the thing. That's the accessibility piece, right? I think a lot of people might not have a name for what they are doing. I certainly didn't have a name to what I was doing. But like I look back and I've mentioned queerness a little, but witchcraft and queerness for me are very interlocked. So one of the funny things as I have been processing my deconversion, processing my queerness, coming into that much later. You know, I'm 29 and I came out last year. So with all of that, I look back on the intentions that I was weaving into my life when I was younger, back when I was still in high control spaces, and I was always making fun, whimsical art. I was always trying to find the interesting parts or I was always asking the hard questions. And people would say over and over to me, Kandi, there's so much intention in what you do, like in a Christian way.
They would say that in a Christian way to me. And then I started down an actual witchcraft path, and I went, oh, I've been doing color magic with my clothes since I was like 12. And I also looked back at the way I was expressing myself in those earlier years and going, oh my goodness, that was incredibly queer coded.
And I didn't know that I was connecting to something greater, that my queer ancestors liked to wear. There were so many clues. It should have been obvious. The amount of button downs and sapphic earrings. I don't know.
DL: I think that's kind of a more fun and as you said, whimsical way of getting in touch with who we are, even if we were a part of high control religions. Because honestly, it can be kind of triggering for me to look at childhood pictures of myself because I had really long hair, I was dressed in very feminine clothes.
Well, you know. I'm non-binary and I didn't come out until I was 38. So hey, you are way ahead of me on the road. I'll just say that. And sometimes it can be triggering, but thinking through the lens of intentionality and witchcraft, I'm like, wow, I can see some of these, these strands in my life. And it's very fun and cool to connect with, oh, I've always been this way, right? There's something in me, possibly historic. I don't know, right? That has always been there. So I think that's been so fun for me, because as you know, it can be really hard to get in touch with your younger self when you grow up in these kinds of spaces, especially if your queerness was seen as the enemy.
So I'm so glad you keep bringing up how witchcraft is connected to queerness because that's really how I experience it. And I do want to talk really quickly about accessibility in witchy spaces because you talk about this in your book and it really stood out to me because you even mentioned incense, right?
If you go to this old school witchy store it's probably going have some incense burning, some very strong scents, and that actually isn't accessible to everyone. And I want to talk about that for a minute, but for me as a non-binary person, I have felt some hesitation in spaces that really do talk about the divine feminine a lot, and they assume all witches are female and are women that are very much in touch with and proud of their womanhood, which coming from my background, that was forced onto me so much that it can just be triggering.
And so I've been thinking about accessibility when it comes to being genderqueer, right? Or gender nonconforming in the witchy space. So sorry, I just threw a lot at you. Whatever you want to talk about, let's go there.
Kandi: I love that so much. So the accessibility thing is super layered. So yes to the incense thing, because that is something, that was my first hurdle that I ran into. I think another aspect of accessibility, I actually, I'll go back to that in a second, but as far as queerness goes I will go back to—
Hello, my dog just walked in.
DL: I thought it was a ghost!
Kandi: So, where was I? Oh, yes. So, queerness, as far as accessibility goes. Yes, it is overwhelmingly assuming that you are a cis lady. And, I'll be honest with you, I'm a lesbian, but I also am starting to learn that I might have some gender fuckery in me.
DL: Yay!
Kandi: So trying to figure that out. I edit witchcraft books, and one of the things that at my job we'll come back to a lot with authors is just working together and everyone's just so committed to this, which I love, working together for finding inclusive language and making sure, because, yeah, like, The archetypes of Maiden, Mother, Crone, like those are cool, but it doesn't have to be Maiden, Mother, Crone.
DL: It's hard! Yeah, it's hard for me, honestly. So thanks for saying that.
Kandi: Yeah, for the range of human experience as it relates to gender, again, we need to be aware of our own biases toward a cis presentation and a heteronormative presentation. And that is part of accessibility within witchcraft. And I want to see more and more writers within witchcraft that are not cis.
Because I'm seeing a lot of just general queer folks doing it and I want to see even more specifically non cis folks doing it. I was just talking to somebody at work about this and we were talking about how cool it would be to have more of that in the pipeline.
DL: And I think with the younger generation, that's just going to be a really normalized thing and that's exciting. It's just sort of, like you said, there's gatekeepers everywhere. I've just sensed a bit of that with some of the elders and that's okay. But I'm just like, wow, it's a little bit confusing to be non-binary. And there's space to play for me, which I'm grateful for, like to play with the words divine and feminine in ways that I haven't been able to access before.
So it's, it's not all negative at all. It's just an interesting space to be in. But yeah, so I read your thing about the incense and then I found the one witchy shop in my like Portland suburb and loved it. And it was very accessible in certain ways. Everything was so reasonably priced. Everything came from local pagan artists. I was looking for frankincense oil and the lady who runs it was like, yeah, we're out. But just buy the resin for $2.50 and infuse it in oil during a moon cycle and like, boom. She's like, this is what witches have done forever, right?
We don't have 20 bucks to spend to buy a frankincense oil, we make our own. And it was very cool. I was like, that's accessible to me. I got mugwort for two dollars. I was like, wow! But the incense was blasting. The music was loud. It was very overwhelming, too. I was like, I'm glad I read Kandi's book because then I can not say whoa, this is too overwhelming. I could just be like, wow, some of this is really working for me and some of it is not and that's totally okay and that's probably pretty normal.
Kandi: Exactly. And one of the things I'll say about accessibility in witchcraft is that my book meant to be the start of the conversation, not the end of the conversation. Because accessibility needs are multi layered, and sometimes we even have conflicting needs. The book was basically an invitation to start those conversations and to just be aware of each other and be okay with people saying, this part is working for me, this part is not working for me.
And, because we as a community take care of each other. So making sure that there are spaces for everyone, even if some spaces don't work entirely for some people, making sure that we all have our spaces and all have access and being able to communicate our needs through that.
DL: Yeah, totally. And, you know, maybe this will get into my next question, obviously there's religious indoctrination, there's stigma, there's all this stuff going on that can make people be like, well, witchcraft is not for me. I know Kandi says it's for everyone, but it can't be for me. You know, I'm just a normie who grew up Christian. How can I be into it? So I'm trying to think of some of the barriers that people have. I know for myself, two of the main ones have been these concerns I have about financial access. I don't have a lot of money to invest in paraphernalia, I guess, or all that stuff.
Then, two, would be issues of appropriation. As someone who's starting off into this journey, I want to read every book. I want to make sure I'm not appropriating it. I was so excited because I bought this little bundle at this place I go to all the time. It had this crystal I've been wanting. It came bundled up with some sage. Then I got home that day and read that the most appropriative thing you can do is buy white sage. You know, from a white business. And I was like, no, fuck! I did it. I did the wrong thing. I didn't want to spend the money, but I did. And then it turned out to be wrong. You know what I'm saying?
Kandi: Yes, yes.
DL: I can't be the only one who has some of those hangups. I want to hear your thoughts on the appropriation thing. And then we can also talk about the financial thing if we want to.
Kandi: Yes, I would love to talk about this because like, yes, these kinds of mistakes are so common and I want to reiterate that self-compassion is extremely important through this process. I have a whole ritual in the book called Crafting Your Own Spoonie Craft Ethics. That's on page 25 of the book where I get into some questions to ask as you're pursuing new practices.
But you're going to make a mistake. We live under capitalism and there are going to be some things that despite our best efforts, we will mess up. I think the opportunity—we cannot go through life—we can repair. And so when you deal with that, you repair. When I learned about the sage thing, what I ended up doing was -- it's not a perfect solution, but I would go to, if I had the extra money, I would go and find the most sustainable sage, like, for cooking.
That's what I would grab. And then I would just keep that, and I wouldn't even burn it. I literally would just keep it on my altar for times that I wanted to do sage. But everybody's different. There's a book I got to edit this year, Utopian Witch by Justine Kirsten Norton. They have done a phenomenal job. Utopian Witch is about a solar punk vision for the craft and she gets into all kinds of stuff, it's wonderful. Another great voice in this conversation is Juliet Diaz who has written The Altar Within and The Seasons of the Witch decks (she also has a substack, which you can subscribe to here). She is a person of color and she brings so much wisdom about all of this.
So being aware that you're going to mess up, being willing to ask the questions, and being willing to repair when you do mess up, that's the name of this game. Because we are human and we live in a very fucked up system. So that's the approach that I've come to with appropriation.
Do you have any other questions about that? Cause I have some thoughts about the financial side.
DL: Well, I think for me, if people listening are unaware about the sage question, it's sort of like I don't know how you would describe it, but it's basically like an encapsulation of an unethical way to engage in witchy things just because that is a practice from Native Americans that has now been commodified and, and tends to profit white people, right?
Kandi: Yes. Yes.
DL: And the money is going to them. I think for myself, I'm someone who can get into ethical OCD loops at times. But that is not what has been happening. I just have this sense that the more I engage with these rituals and practices, the more I'm going to want to discover how I can do this with the least amount of harm to everyone.
Knowing that there could be things I'm like, well, that's not great. Let me try and just be a little bit more creative for the next time. And I think that's a much more helpful framework for me. You're right. I'm not going to get this right. But the intention is so important.
If you have an intention to do as little harm as possible while providing a grounded sacred space for yourself, I think that's going to happen, right? That’s my hope.
Kandi: Yes. Exactly. I think these frames of mind allow us to be in the right headspace to advocate for change in systems. Because what we're running up against is that it's hard to practice completely ethically under capitalism. It's especially hard when we take in the financial consideration. I'm disabled and I'm lucky to have a job that allows me to work from home.
But I do not have the earning power of someone who is not disabled. And I know so many other witchy spoonies who are in the same boat. There were periods of time when there was so little money and I just had to use what I had around the house. I used a lot from the dollar store and Five Below.
It wasn't the most ethical, but it did allow me to get in a headspace that allowed me to advocate for change both in my own life and on a system level. And that's what you're looking for. You're doing that calculation in your head of like, how is this thing going to help ground me and allow me to not burn out so that I can continue to do activism work and I can continue to advocate for myself and others.
So that is the calculation I do with regard to finances.
DL: Yeah, and I think you're right. There is space for everyone, including people who have very limited financial resources to be able to engage in some of these practices. That's very important to me just from an accessibility standpoint. I think sometimes when people are starting to get into it’s like, I need to buy the right decks. I need to buy the right things. I need to buy the right books.
And it's like, well, you have a library, you can forage. Looking around, at what you have. For me, I tried to plant this witchy herb spiral even before I knew this is what I was doing, And now I look at it every day and I'm like, well, I didn't have the energy to take care of that very well.
Does this make me the worst garden witch in the world? Who cares? You just try, and if you have the energy, you keep going. You know, I still use some of those herbs to do things. And for me, my garden is such a picture of my waxing and waning energy levels.
Kandi: Yes. Oh, waxing and waning! I mean, we could talk about waxing and waning. So in the book, in the moon phases section, I call them moon phases, spoon phases. So talking about the waxing and waning of the spoons.
DL: I love this.
Kandi: Because within witchcraft, moon phases are a really important image of there are going to be times when you have more energy than others.I believe in this so strongly. It is literally tattooed on my body. I have the moon phases on my body.
DL: I'm starting to fall in love with the moon, you know?
Kandi:I was sort of in love with the moon growing up and I didn't really know why. And then when I started exploring this path, I was like, oh, oh, this is so fun. I love this.
DL: I just think, again, this is so cool. I've never been that in love with the moon, but I have been obsessed with waves. The sound they make, the motion they make. I hate swimming in it – I have a very deep, ancient, healthy fear of the ocean. I don't know why, but the waves, I could just watch them for hours.
And now I'm like, well, it is connected to the moon. I have been drawn to how the waves are just like a kind of a sped up waxing and waning cycle, right? So I don't know. It's fun for me to think about these things. And I just love how this is such a story for anyone who experiences disability like autistic burnout, right?
Kandi: Yes.
DL: I just think rituals and intentions in witchcraft can be so helpful for autistic people like myself who have experienced burnout in a capitalist society. And not to be a huge downer, but I think things are going to get even more intense, right? Coming up. And that's why I'm honestly encouraged to see that people are being drawn to these sustainable grounded practices because, yeah, we're all probably going to need that coming up.
Kandi: That's the thing, as I've been reflecting on everything that's been happening, because, yeah, I’m have similar thoughts about the days to come. And something I keep coming back to is that we take care of us and part of the mutual aid of community is making sure we all have our practices that ground us because we're not going to be able to take care of each other through all of this if we are not taking care of ourselves.
So there's a beauty and a resistance too, because when we take this time for ourselves and to do rituals that ground us and make us feel like ourselves and feel that sense of connection, we are actively resisting the forces of capitalism that might say, hey you know those rhythms of hurrying in this, in this bad political situation, you've got to hurry.
And we're going to take care of what we need to take care of, but we aren't going to use capitalism as a lens for how we handle this situation.
DL: Yes. I know this might sound silly, but my current situation is, I'm also not a high earner. I do get to do what I like to do, so I'm grateful about that, but I'm mostly a mom to two kids who have, you know, complex disabilities. And sometimes I'll find myself doing trad wife stuff, you know, like cooking a meal that's really important to my kids that kind of takes a lot of work, cleaning the house, and witchcraft has allowed me to infuse it with like magical energy and creative energy.
And a part of me is like, this is so weird because the pressure to become a Christian woman homemaker in my background was so intense, and yet here I am cleaning and cooking for a huge portion of my day. And when I cook I'm being a witch. That's how I feel now. I don't know how to explain it.
Do you know what I mean?
Kandi: Yes, I do. I became so much better at domestic tasks when I became witchy and acknowledged I was a lesbian.
DL: This is hilarious to me!
Kandi: I cook way more than I used to. There should have been clues that I was never quite suited for – I was supposed to be a trad wife, but honestly, so like when I was growing up, I was in a very, you know, very conservative thing.
And there was sort of this sense of like, Kandi should be a trad wife, however, she's kind of bad at the domestic skills. Why don't we send her to Bible college and then put her in Christian publishing? That's, that's where she'll do the most good.
DL: Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. I was the odd one, so I had to be missionary. You know, where the oddness could be overlooked. Yeah, in my community, it was kind of assumed that I wouldn't ever find a partner. Because what dude would like such a little weirdo? And now I'm like, well, it's kind of worked out for me in this interesting way. But I just think that's a funny thing about witchy content right now.
Some of it almost veers into the trad wife. But that's not how I'm experiencing it. Does that make sense?
Kandi: It does. It's such a real thing because, like any spiritual path, there is an actual pipeline that goes over there to the far right. It does exist.
DL: Like everything in our world currently.
Kandi: Like everything in our world. Exactly. But I love the idea of reclaiming because like the tasks of take of community care of cooking and cleaning and making sure everyone's all right. Fascism does not own those community skills. We own community care.
DL: I mean, I don't know if you know this, but fascism wants really stressed out kids. And so just for me giving my kids a childhood for as long as it will last, you know, like that's what I feel like is one of my main, goals at this point in my life. Now I am kind of excited about entering the crone phase, you know, but for right now it is the mother phase. It's just so fascinating to be like these are the skills, like I'm really good at making pie. I can make pie out of sugar and flour and milk that tastes good. I can make a depression pie, you know. And I this is gonna be helpful in the future. For now it's like oh I can do this. You know, it's one of my weird little community skills. I just love that.
Kandi: I love the idea of community-valued labor because we talk in capitalism about like, oh, you know, work and you have a nine to five job and everything, But community valued labor is that cooking and cleaning and stuff. And we shouldn't have to hustle to the degree that we do to make sure all these needs are met because community-valued labor is underappreciated and undervalued.
DL: Oh. I know. So it's interesting how the witchy stuff can infuse so many areas of your life once you start kind of going down this path. So we got to wrap up here. I really wanted to ask you for the people, you know, I'm calling them baby pagans, right? People who are like, I am kind of into nature and I kind of want to do this stuff, but I don't know how. What are your tips for those kinds of folks.
Kandi: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So, be kind to yourself and listen to your body and what you're drawn to and just start there. And I think another important thing is to remember that the path can be secular or not or something in between. And when you read a witchy book, this is all us just making meaning as humans.
So you can take or leave what doesn't serve you. I think kind of related to that. And I alluded to like the alt right pipelines that do exist within witchy spaces. Just like with any spiritual path, you do not have to throw your brain out the door, like you can still be really into science and believe that science is real and all of that and do the witchy stuff. In fact, I encourage it. But just the big reminder is to be kind to yourself, listen to your body, listen to your intuition and just read and experience and know that you're not alone. You know, talk to other people. It's good to be in community. And again, listening to the things that sound like they're good to you, and stuff that doesn't seem to be a good fit, you do not have to include it. It's witchcraft. This is not church. You do not have to, there's no dogma here.
DL: And there’s no one that you're gonna get in trouble with. This is about you and figuring out what feels good to your body and aligns with your values, right? And gives you the strength to recognize you're connected to something larger than yourself. And for me, the most grounding thing possible is I try and find, like, the oldest tree in my neighborhood and go look at it.
And be like, oh. Oh! Oh, you've been here for quite some time, and you're still going strong. I bet next week I'll go on this same walk and see you, as I've been seeing you for the past ten years. It's just an interesting practice for me. It helps me to trust there's something more than the headlines and this incessant pace of the American society.
Right? So this is so important to me. I hope other people can find groundedness and solace and self-love and self-compassion since both you and I know self-compassion was sort of the enemy within religious authoritarianism, right? Because that gives you the courage to be able to stand up to unjust authority.
And so that was never prioritized. So I feel like this whole world can actually help with that. And I think your book is such a great way for helping people start to get into this with so much of that self-compassion infused into the word. So thank you so much for the intentions I can tell you put into this book.
I hope people pick it up. It's called Disabled Witchcraft: 90 Rituals for Limited Spoon Practitioners. Now we know it's a devotional for witches and that you don't have to read in order. You can flip around in, which I love. I super love that. To me, that's like an autonomy thing too, right? What do I want to look at today?
Kandi: That's what I was gonna say, it's an autonomy devotional.
DL: Yes, which is great. It's like, I don't want to read about tarot cards today. I want to read about this. I just love that I get to choose, you know, where to pop in. But let people who are listening know, where can they find you? Where can they find your work? And if you're doing it, any other writing projects, let us know.
Kandi: The best way to probably do that is microcosm. pub slash disabledwitch. And then for my general editing and writing work, Kandizeller. com. My name is spelled K A N D I, and my last name is spelled Z E L L E R. So kandizeller. com. That's where you can book me for an editing project because I do still do freelance stuff.
And then for my writing, I have All the Threads where I try to do a weekly spiritual practice. It's been a little crazy in my life. So it's been more like two spiritual practices a month these days, but we have a really good time over there.
DL: Yes. I love your Substack. I'm very excited to be a little bit more I don't know the right word. I just feel like that's another thing I've realized is people come to this when they're ready and not before. And so everyone's just totally on their own timeline and their own path.
And it's very cool for me to be like, I'm finally starting to understand what Kandi is talking about. And I love that.
Kandi: I'm just so glad that you found, like, because again, when I say Witchcraft is for everyone, it's more saying that the path is open to everyone. It's not a requirement to join. But if it means, if it's valuable to you, I just, I love that. I love it when other people enjoy this as much as I do. And I'm so glad that this has been a path that's been, like, whimsical and life giving to you.
DL: It really has. And it's just nice to have some people to look up to who are a few years down the journey. Sometimes when people have been into it for decades, I'm like, oh, I don't know. So it's just nice that there's people who are like, yeah, this is a more recent thing yet. I've spent so much time thinking about it.
And I view you as one of those people. So thanks for being open. Thanks for writing the book, even with the limited spoons. I know how much work it is. So thank you so much, Kandi. And I just hope – I don't know what I hope for you. I hope that you continue to find those readers that are going to resonate with this.
And I just, for my pattern-making brain, you know, I'm like, we are seeing a huge resurgence of of paganism and it's just going to continue to increase. So that's my two cents on that.
Kandi: Yes. Well, thanks so much for having me. This has been a lovely conversation.
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