Welcome to Healing is My Special Interest, the newsletter at the intersection of late-diagnosed neurodivergence and recovering from high control environments. Today I am so excited to share my conversation with Tori Williams Douglass, an anti-racism educator who is a teensy bit obsessed with neurobiology. I have been loving her content on shame and nervous systems lately, and I’m so excited to share our conversation with you all! She made some incredible points about communities like white evangelical churches being spaces where people *think* they are building the skills of emotional resiliency but so often it is about transcational encounters and bypassing emotions. Thanks to your support, I am able to pay people like Tori for her time and expertise. Be sure to check out her website, her podcasts, her patreon, and follow her on all the social medias. And share this episode if you you find it helpful!
Below is a transcript of our conversation, that has been lightly edited for clarity.
If you are a paid subscriber, let us know your thoughts on the episode in the comments below!
DL: [00:00:00] Welcome to Healing Is My Special Interest, the podcast. I'm the host, D. L. Mayfield, and I'm really happy to get to talk to someone I have followed on the internet for years. I think we can almost say decades at this point, and that is, Tori Williams Douglas. I always like, the first name that comes to my head for you is always your original Twitter handle, I have to remember.
People change, people evolve, and you're just like a badass anti racist educator with a million different things going on now, and not just a person I followed on Twitter 10 years ago. So I'm so glad you're here! Welcome!
Tori: Thank you so much for, for having me. Yeah. I guess it has been like rolling up on a decade. That's wild.
DL: I mean, it's happening. The passage of time is happening and I'm slowly starting to see the [00:01:00] benefits of getting older and realizing I actually have been developing skills in my life that will help prepare me to live in the actual moment I find myself in. I think that's something you're passionate about too.
And so for people who don't know who you are, I just wondered if you could give a little background. I also want to say. I interviewed you for my other podcast many moons ago. I don't even know if you remember, but, I do remember us talking a lot about Aslan and you were talking about Alan being a drama queen, and I just, I dunno, that was amazing.
That's for my other podcast, the Prophetic Imagination Station. So here we go. Now we get to talk about, well, a lot of things, but I'll let you first, you know, tell people who you are.
Tori: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks. So I. Where do I even begin? No. So I have a podcast, called Go Home Bible, You're Drunk. That's like post evangelical shenanigans. And just again, making fun of the fact that God, like Aslan, is just constantly being a [00:02:00] drama queen. And. It makes you feel a little drunk to like read this and try to take it seriously.
So, yeah, I was raised in church and stayed in that for a really long time. Not really doing that anymore. But in the last, you know, yeah, in the, in the last like 10 years or so, I have, started using my just like typical, nerd out energies on figuring out like the intersection between American history, neuroscience and racism, like how those things kind of all work together because I, you know, and I do a lot of anti racism training. So like where I find myself and conversations I find myself in, they're all very interesting because there's like this huge shame component and we don't know how to deal with that.
So yeah, that's kind of, [00:03:00] that's kind of where I am like coming from in this work. I worked in a neuroscience lab for about three years. And so that was where the like neuroscience piece came in for me. You know, it was a huge lab and people were doing all kinds of cool stuff, but, there were some people who were there who were working on, racial bias and like priming, giving people prompts and seeing how they associate regular everyday things with like something positive or negative.
Based on, you know, if they see a black face or a white face,
Like maternal trauma and how that impacts brain development. So yeah, it was like really amazing experience. And, I'm super grateful that I got to do that. And then, you know, I, I kind of grew up nerding out on, history because, you know, this is just like neuro-atypical. You find a thing that you're really interested in, and then you have to know all the things about it. And something that was really interesting and something that got me out of [00:04:00] Evangelicalism actually was that like, I would go to have conversations with people thinking that I was like, quite well read and, had, you know, information and had something to contribute to conversations and just being like, knocked down.
People being like, what are you even talking about? That is not what happened. And, you know, so shame responses, again, a lot of people don't respond well to that, but maybe, and maybe it's different for people, I don't know, on the spectrum or what have you, people who are. I don't know, neurospicy. Are we using that term anymore?
So for me, you know, for a lot of people, like if I go and I say that to someone, like, that's not even, what are you even talking about? That's not, that's not what happened. You're, you're nuts. Most people would be like, completely shut down. But for me, I was like, Oh, okay. I really actually want to learn more about this. And so I started digging in, , and actually, you know, [00:05:00] unlearning a lot of the fake white nationalist history that I was taught in my, in my textbooks and learning actual history, I'd say a solid half of which is just not taught, so
DL: Yeah.
Tori: Yeah, that's, that's where I am now.
DL: Ugh. Okay. Well, I think that does such a good job of sort of explaining what it's like to grow up in a space like white evangelicalism or, you know, sort of a high control environment, and how, like intellect is suppressed, right? And so also like learning things outside of approved sources is really suppressed and that has such long term impacts on people.
But then there are some of us, right, who are like, well, I'm going to make sure I can show up for this argument in a way, and I'll study my way into convincing people. Now, I was in that space for many, many years. You saw me. You saw what I was writing. I'm trying to [00:06:00] legitimize what I'm thinking, and eventually I just did realize, oh, people aren't going to change.
You know, people aren't in a space where they can change and what a devastating realization that is because this is not just an intellectual exercise , this is our families, this is our communities, this is all that. So you just illustrated that perfectly and that's why I'm so into what you are talking about these days, which is shame and how shame is a part of these conversations in particular if you come from these backgrounds. So I would just love to hear just whatever you want to say about your work right now on how shame operates.
I would say specifically in white evangelicalism, but of course it could be broader than that.
Tori: Yeah, absolutely. I think religion sort of structurally is a really great jumping off point for controlling people via shame. You know, shame is a natural response that we have in our nervous systems. It's not like, It's not inherently like a bad thing, [00:07:00] right? But how we engage with it makes a huge difference.
And how people weaponize it against us, also makes a huge difference and, codes your nervous system to respond in a certain way. So like for those of us who grew up in, in white evangelicalism and, you know, shame was very common. People who grew up Catholic, like, shame was like the weapon of choice.
And people, I think that people in, in positions of power within white evangelicalism use it because it works. They wouldn't be using it if it didn't work, right? And so, I have been trying to make connections between, people's shame responses and racism, or more, I guess, more succinctly, when you call someone out for racism, they feel shame, start spiraling, the conversation's over, and they've checked out.
And I have been [00:08:00] trying to kind of like educate people, kind of coach people through that. And, and so that was always like for the trainings that I would do, anti racism trainings, I always started out with a, Hey, your nervous system might start to react to some of the words that I am saying.
That is normal. It's okay. You know, don't, you don't have to like, mentally check out, , or get all fighty and defensive, like, just kind of, you know, sit with it, breathe through it, take a little break if you need to, drink some water, some tea, you know, whatever it is that you do to self regulate, because, you know, when I'm talking about something like U.S. history,
It's very odd, like the shame responses that come up just by talking openly and honestly about about the history of this country. And for evangelicals, I think especially because they have like deified the [00:09:00] Constitution and Americanism and Christianity are inseparable to them, right?
They can't imagine Christianity without capitalism, nevermind without America. And so, shame responses are really, really powerful and when people start weaponizing that, because again, it's like a fight or flight response, your critical thinking skills are like low power mode.
We're just going to try to survive now, right? And so, you know, your long term. planning and delayed gratification and all the, you know, whatever, all the catchphrases that we're using right now, your willpower, all of those things are, you know, take all of those functions take place in your prefrontal cortex.
And when you're in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, or fight, flight, freeze, appease, whichever one you're using, to be technical, but fight or flight for short, when you, when your nervous system is activated in that way, and shame does activate your nervous system in that same way, you know, then yeah, [00:10:00] you're not thinking critically, you are responding in a state of survival, right? You're suddenly in survival mode. And I think that that really kind of, hinders us from seeing what's happening when we are in that space, right? Because it's like the critical thinking piece is just kind of like, whoosh, you know, there's, I think there is anti-intellectualism rampant in white evangelicalism, but also just in how we like interact with one another and, and having good, positive, reciprocal relationships, like even that doesn't exist in, in evangelicalism.
So I have been, yeah, I've been trying to, the thing that I've been trying to learn about a lot recently is kind of identifying the ways that, shame being weaponized by religious people, religious cultures, , religious institutions. really hinders all of us because, you know, it affects those of us who aren't in it also.
It's [00:11:00] not, it's not really something that you can, you can escape. And so kind of examining the ways that that has really, I think, held us back and, you know, because if you can't deal with your own shame, if you can't engage, then you are kind of stuck. That's not a point on the journey that you can spiritually bypass.
It doesn't work.
DL: Yeah, so I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about. The problem with shame in specifically in religious context, right, is that the religion says the only way you can feel better is by committing more to this group in this ideology and we promise you, you'll feel better. And so that's sort of like how it just keeps going and going, right?
As people literally do not develop the skills to deal with shame or even identify, Oh my God, I'm feeling triggered. Like you grew up somewhat like me, I believe, where even words like that, like triggered became early on such a buzzword for people like Rush Limbaugh, just to lambast, [00:12:00] like anything that was encouraging people to sort of pay attention to their own bodies and their own feelings and their own nervous system were quickly, quickly shamed, right, by conservatives. And anybody who used that kind of language was then shamed, like, in those spaces. You're a liberal snowflake for talking about being triggered. You know, all this stuff. And I'm just like, the long term implications of people like myself. I didn't have any skill to understand when I was being triggered or not, and how to self regulate.
Like, even you using that language. I know it now, but my goodness, if somebody had been like, I'm going to talk about U. S. history, I'm going to talk about racism as a white person, you might get triggered and you need to learn how to self regulate. I would have been like, whoa, that, that's like, you're talking in another language.
I don't even know what that means because of my background. Now, I think culture has shifted. What, what do you think? Do you think it's sort of catching up a little bit in that way?
Tori: I think it is, and this is a whole other can of worms, and we can go down this path if you want to, or [00:13:00] not. Either way, but, I think that, we are catching up with our language, but we are not catching up, I don't think, with our, like emotional resilience, which again, shame, we are not catching up with accountability to other people in our community.
Some of that's not our fault, right? Like global pandemic, it wasn't, there were not a lot of opportunities while we're learning all of this stuff, there were not a lot of opportunities to go and like practice it with other people. You know, and, we were not really. We weren't given opportunities to practice and build these skills.
We did not see these skills, practiced by other people because no one was using them. And so, you know, when, like for me, when my therapist started talking about, like, oh, you have needs also. I was like, yeah, no, mm mm, that's not true. I couldn't deal with it. It took me so long to, like, [00:14:00] step back, right?
And to be able to engage in a way that wasn't like, an activated shame response.
DL: Oh, can you, can you talk about that a little bit more? What did it look like for you? Because I think that is so true for so many people. And in fact, in my healing journey, going to therapy, I was like, well, I can't get healed because then I won't be an activist anymore, right? Everything is coming out of this place of shame.
And not always just shame. Sometimes it's a fight response and that's legitimate too, right? If you've been fighting. So I think it's always a mix, but I just really perked up when you said that. So if you feel like talking about that, what did that look like in your life to be like, no, I can't have needs.
I have to keep operating this way because, you know, whatever.
Tori: Yeah, that was a really interesting and kind of a long process of like, you know, being in therapy every single week and having to kind of go through and identify, okay, first of all, like, where did you, where did you learn this thing that you don't have needs, which for us is [00:15:00] like, childhood, we were, you know, you're not allowed to have needs if you were a child growing up in evangelicalism, even, even like your basic needs, like things you need to survive are conditional, and based on how you behave, and so, it was, really, really, really difficult for me to, step back and go, okay, I, I have needs.
And the shame response there was, at least for me, you know, if I have to admit that I have needs, then I have to admit that I need people, right? Like the needs that I can meet on my own, I can meet on my own. But that's not how, you know, again, like humans evolved in community, right? And so, that's, that's always how, that's always been our primary means of regulating is actually co-regulation.
And so when you kind of step back and go like, Oh my God, I've been, I've been [00:16:00] telling myself that I have been doing all of this on my own. And that has just been complete self-deception. And. I need to admit to myself that actually I'm a lot more flawed
than I once understood. and even that language, I don't, I don't, I want to unpack that just a little bit because, you know, saying I'm flawed, like that's what having needs was. It was a flaw. It was a character flaw to have emotional needs. It was something that you could, you know, you could legitimately be punished for.
And so, of course, like, your nervous system is gonna respond with like, Yeah, nope, don't, we don't do that. So, like, even me using that language of, like, having needs is a flaw. Like, that was something that, nobody ever said that to me. Right? But it was communicated by people's behavior. It was communicated to me by the way that people treated me.
You know, and I think that, I think that as evangelical [00:17:00] kids, you learn pretty young, like, don't ask for shit because, like, the answer is already no. And again, this is like basic needs of things that, things you need to stay alive. Even that is like, again, as I said, conditional. So, it was really, really scary for me to let go of this idea that I had of myself that I don't have needs. And like the needs that I do have, I can meet on my own.
Right. Because that is like peak Americanism of, like, you don't have any needs,
DL: And a way to keep yourself safe since your community, the people that are supposed to co-regulate you, right, you already know that they aren't going to help. So I, I think that's just a defense mechanism too, right? Yeah.
Tori: Totally. Yeah, absolutely. So, in that process of having to reframe my entire self conceptualization, and work, again, I know I keep harping on this, but [00:18:00] like, I have my journal sitting right in front of me. I was like, going through it. Trying to accept the fact that, oh, you have needs. And that's okay. Like if other people have needs and you probably do too, because then it's like, Oh, I have to be vulnerable and ask to get my needs met. And that's scary, because again, like, our nervous systems were very, very young, our nervous systems were coded to be like, oh no, you're going to get punished for that.
That's not even like a neutral thing, right? It's not even, it's not even a neutral thing. You will be actively punished for vulnerability. And so... again, these were things that I really struggled with for months and months and months trying to like, just wrap my head around, okay, this isn't a flaw, right?
It's not a flaw to need things from people. And [00:19:00] also I get to, in this space, even though it fucking sucks, I get to be brave and ask for things that I need. But again, it took me a long time to get to the point where I was even framing it as like, I get to be brave, right? It felt like fucking punishment.
That's what it felt like. So, yeah, that turning it all the way around, it's hard. It's hard.
DL: Yeah, I mean, thanks for sharing that because I think that's where this conversation I'm like it could go in a million different directions because the long term impacts of being raised in constant shame right and constant fear of punishment which are two things that are a part of the evangelical experience, you know, I'm working on a book about Dr. Dobson
We've talked a little bit about him and that's just like yeah, you will get physically hurt and the person hurting you will say I'm doing this because I love you. Now, please stop doing whatever [00:20:00] you did that doesn't allow, you know, and the long term impacts of that. I know a lot of people listening and, and reading this transcript do come from situations where they're still surrounded by people that have very transactional and conditional, you know, things towards getting, giving love and giving care and getting needs met.
It's like, I will do that for you if you continue to show up in the way that I need you to, right? And so I think that's just another important piece of this conversation is, when I look at systems of enmeshment and toxic family systems and toxic political situations, I'm like, these are the things we can't even verbalize.
But I am connected to people where I don't feel safe, and I have to show up in ways that don't feel safe in order to get my needs met. And we literally can't conceptualize of a place where that's not happening. So I know people listening have that sort of despair in them and I hope they can hear both me and you when we say we felt that despair [00:21:00] and, you got to trust us that to take care of your own nervous system will have such important ripple impact So I just wanna say that really quick I I don't know if you want to jump on to that too, but there's so many barriers to people taking their own chronic shame seriously, and I totally get it, but you and I have just, I think both had to come to places where it's like, we have to do this if we're gonna survive.
Right? We have to start taking this seriously.
Tori: Yeah, absolutely. You know, you had, you sent me, you sent me a couple of questions the other day as just is like a jumping off point for like our conversation. And I noticed, like, I think it was maybe the last one that was on there is like, how are you taking care of yourself? And, that one, I got really happy when I saw that because that was like one of the first things that I had to do, in order to move past, this shame response that I was having, towards the concept of even having needs. So for [00:22:00] me, that was, like, the first step and, my therapist was like, hey, after therapy, you should probably go and, like, you know, do I don't know, 10 minutes of meditation or like do some yoga, like get back in your body.
And, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I like would not do it. And then I would freak out. Right. You know, I, I, like the way that I process things, it's usually like over the course of like the next couple of hours, to days. But yeah, like my nervous system would be like, okay, nope, we're done. That's it.
You've hit, you've hit the limit. It's like you've gone over your credit limit with your nervous system. I'm, I'm, I'm out. And so eventually I had to accept the fact that like I need needs, I have needs, which means I need to take care of myself and taking baby steps in that direction.
Something that was really helpful for me that I don't feel like I [00:23:00] see enough people talking about, so I'm just going to throw this out there is breathwork. It has been really, really helpful for me. It's actually been like life changing for my nervous system. I'm not going to lie. If you know, if you're a raised evangelical, might be worth giving it a shot.
It's free. But that's, you know, so that's, that's my primary tool, for taking care of myself. But again, like I absolutely started this journey, like, not taking that seriously at all. Like whatever, like that doesn't matter. And again, if you're a socialized female in these spaces, you're not, you're not allowed to have real needs, right?
You're allowed to need a flower on Mother's Day at church. That's about it.
DL: Oh my god, I just got triggered! No, just kidding, I'm about the carnations on Mother's Day Sunday.
Tori: It was brutal. Brutal
DL: Oh, oh, Tori. Okay, [00:24:00] well, I definitely want to come back to that at the end, because I think this is so vital. And, I just want to know... Sort of what your thoughts are, because the way this gets so complicated to me, right, is you, you know, you're coming from your anti racist work. And so obviously white people get triggered and shame is going to come up for white people when they're talking about this.
Now you are Also someone who your own nervous system, right, might get activated when a white person is wilding out in front of you and basically pressuring you to tell them they're a good person, because I'm assuming that's what happens a lot, right, or, you know, it can go in a variety of different directions.
And so, you know, that's why I think it is important to bring intersectionality into this because all of us. are experiencing nervous system dysregulation and chronic shame. And it can just get pretty tricky if we're not precise about what's happening in the moment. And so I just wondered, you know, if that sparked any thoughts for you or even like [00:25:00] how you sort of see this playing out.
On social media, and I have another question about that. I don't know if this is a good time to bring it up, but I think social media obviously can trigger us, and if we don't have the skills to, regulate, it can sort of really add up, but also, I think it can sort of help co-regulate us sometimes.
This is just a thought I had, so I just, I just kind of wanted to throw that out there to you.
Tori: Yes, I, I think that you are right. I think that there are spaces, social media obviously is changing a lot, but I think that there are spaces where you can co-regulate with other people. I don't think that all interaction online is inherently, like, activating to your nervous system. Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, what I have seen on social media is a lot of people using this language, of, of mental health and healing but like, not everybody's actually on that journey, [00:26:00] right? Not everybody's actually got the skills yet to do the work, and you don't have to have the skill set and you don't have to have a place to be able to practice those skills in order to like use the language of therapy of you know mental health and so that's something that I think is really interesting because what I see as an anti-racism educator yeah is a lot of white folks who are doing like, doing the work on themselves, which okay, great, good, but as soon as they, like, as soon as they step out of that, their comfort zone, right, again, it's like a, you're, you're having these shame responses and, but I'm a good person, like you said, and, there's no emotional resilience in that space, in that [00:27:00] conversation, like for those conversations, there is no emotional resilience for being corrected in, like, you know, in anti racist ways, having your like path kind of like, oh, somebody, you know, coming up and being like, Nope, we're going this way. Which has brought me to the point where I don't think that, in order to be, in order to actually be able to, well, one, like, accountability is kind of, and sorry, I hate that, I hate that word, I just
DL: Oh, do you?
Tori: I just haven't found a replacement for it yet. Yeah, because I do think that we have to be accountable for our own actions and our own behavior in community, but then it's like, you know, when for us, it was all just like, oh, accountability is I do nothing like I, I'm the leader. I show up. I do nothing to be vulnerable.
And I demand vulnerability from you. And that was called, that was called accountability. And so. You know, you learn to be fake vulnerable in those spaces. And I think that a lot of people on social media [00:28:00] have also learned to be fake vulnerable and don't have like the emotional resilience receipts to like back it up when they get called out.
And, you know, again,I'm not trying to make this about a one single person, and I'm not trying to say that all of social media is like this, but something that I have noticed is that there are people who are, you know, working on themselves, but then still have no emotional resilience for a conversation about racism.
They have no emotional resilience for a conversation about how they spend their money, right? Or how much, you know, how much free time or income they happen to have, right? There's no emotional resilience, like it just, it disappears. And it's like, and then the thing that I struggle with is, you know, when I'm all about like, yes, step back.
Somebody says like, Hey, I have to step back from this conversation. I can't have this conversation.
Okay. That's, that's fine. And I totally respect that. Like. Your needs are also valid, but like if you're stepping back from the conversation and then when it [00:29:00] comes up again, you have done no work and we're in the same, like, I don't know, we're in the same, like, I don't know, emotional cul de sac, if you will, of just like going around and around and around of, we're playing out the same pattern, you were not building any resilience.
And so I've really come to the conclusion that like emotional resilience at the end of the day can only be built fully in community. I don't see I don't see other ways of that playing out. Which for me, and you know, not not to project but I'm sure that for you, DL you've had very similar very similar experiences, that is terrifying again because it's like that vulnerability piece I don't want to go down that, like, that is terrifying for me.
Like, I am not safe if I'm going to be vulnerable, so I'm just not going to be vulnerable. So within, like, within that space, I think that, yeah, there are, there are absolutely benefits to social media, and I think that there's a lot of, really amazing work out [00:30:00] there, but I think that we can also be, like, handed the language of healing and self help and, and personal growth, and still not have any emotional resilience for hard conversations, still not have emotional resilience when somebody can't perform a task that you have assigned to them, right?
Like maybe you're really emotionally resilient at work, but then you come home and like our family members just get blasted, you know, which is like compartmentalization. That's a very real thing. So this is, this is what I've been trying to kind of educate people on recently.
You know, and I'm, you know, I am a pro. I'm sure you were also a pro at the fake vulnerability. Of like, you have to come up with something to say in the moment of like, what's your sin? What, what are you working on? What's the Lord teaching you right now? And [00:31:00] it's like, I'm not gonna be vulnerable, but you have to be because you're the sheep, right?
DL: Okay, this is so interesting you brought this up, and I, I'm just like, everything you just said right now is really hitting me, I'm like, this seems very profound, just believe people when they show you that they don't have emotional resiliency, right? to have hard conversations that somehow trigger their sense of self because their identity is tied up right in something that is not just them.
And so for me, developing autonomy has been more my focus than vulnerability. But I think that's just because I'm scared, because of my own background, right? With vulnerability, and the sad thing about me as an autistic person, I don't think every autistic person is like that, but I've been just like balls to the wall vulnerable this whole time.
Just earnest as fuck, you know, in everything I do, I'm trying just to be like, this is exactly how I feel. Like, do [00:32:00] you feel this too? And, the ways that has just been weaponized against me. And then also just, not received in kind, right? I'm totally at a place in my life where I'm like, I have a few people and my dog and my cat and that's all my nervous system feels safe with.
And books. So I love me some authors. I have lots of convos with authors in my head all the time. And that's where I'm at right now. Now, when I listen to you talk, it's okay to laugh at me. It's totally fine. When I hear you talk, I'm just like, Oh, maybe. Maybe that's coming down the pike for me, and that's a really nice thing to think about.
I just want to put out a little note for the listeners, I'm in my hermit phase, okay? Like, just, and I've been here for a few years, and I'm just now starting to accept that is sort of a byproduct of CPTSD and all these things. But I really liked hearing what you were saying about [00:33:00] part of emotional resiliency is you can start to also identify when people don't have it.
And when they don't actually seem to have any interest in developing it. And so that really stood out to me and how even just developing a better relationship with your body, you can start to trust how it responds to people, because I, I don't think that's a problem that's going to be going away anytime soon, unfortunately, but wow, I feel like the way you just also relating that back to religious culture,
And that's another thing about how shame can show up. I was thinking as you were talking about I think you were sort of bringing up like a prayer time in a church setting, right? Where you have to share a prayer request or something like that. But like the cult of confession, right? Where it's not reciprocal.
The leaders aren't really sharing what's really going on. But I did. I shared as real as I could. And that information was utilized and weaponized against me, right? To keep me in the group and keep me from never leaving. I don't know. I don't know if you have any thoughts on [00:34:00] that.
Tori: No, that is absolutely how it works, I would say, within like white evangelical spaces, at least. That is very much how it works. There is no, there is no vulnerability. There's no confession. There's no accountability for people who are in leadership and they tell you all day long that there is, but again, when people tell you that they don't have emotional resilience, it's like
You can just believe that. Right.
DL: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Tori: And, evangelical church is just full of, as I said, like this fake vulnerability, because that is what, what your nervous system will allow. Cause it's like, Oh, I'm in this space. There are other people here. I have to participate.
There's like this social pressure to participate in, in accountability group or prayer group or Bible study or whatever. But there are no equitable relationships in that space. And so the piece that you said [00:35:00] about like learning autonomy and how that has been like where you were at in, in your journey, which I, I love.
And I think that like, the thing that makes me so upset is that if church weren't this like weird, sort of controlling, manipulative, weaponizing shame to keep people in. Like it would be such a wonderful place to learn both autonomy and vulnerability. That would be a safe place to practice that. It would be a perfect place to practice that, but it's not right.
And so you have to learn to fake it and, which again, it's like, so it's not even like, oh, I need to learn how to be vulnerable. It's like, I have to unlearn how to be fake being this fake vulnerable. And pretending like that was the real thing. Like those were the things that were actually going on with me.
Before I even get to the point, and it's, and then it's like, oh, well, I'm being vulnerable with myself and that's terrifying. So, okay, and now I'm supposed to go down this path of like learning emotional [00:36:00] resilience, by being vulnerable with other people? Like, what? Again, your nervous system might be like, uh uh, no, we're not doing this.
And that's a very normal response, I think, when you've been raised in those. sorts of environments. But yeah, I think that there is this like one directional sort of accountability. And then, you know, if there's a pastor or somebody like, Somebody who's thought of well in the church and they do something really horrific, it's like, well, we just have to forgive.
Whereas, you know, someone like me or someone like you would be completely like castigated immediately for like the smallest infraction. Like there's no, there's
DL: and we were, weren't we? Yeah.
Tori: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like there's no grace, there's no margin, no margin of error. There's no room for actual growth, I think that white evangelicals pretend that they are growing as people spiritually, but it is the perfect, white evangelical churches specifically are the [00:37:00] perfect place to be done working on yourself. I don't have to grow any more. I can tell myself I'm growing. I'm growing as a believer, but
DL: They think they are. I think some of them are true believers
Tori: believe they are sincere.
DL: and some of them are not.
Tori: Hmm. Mm
DL: that is so accurate. People I love, people I've been biologically, you know, predisposition to love with everything in me, think they are the best, most healthy, evolved people, and they don't have a shred of emotional resiliency.
Not a shred. And I think we are seeing this play out politically,
Tori: Mm hmm.
DL: And again, I think there's true believers, but there's a lot of bad actors who are just like, great, gloves are off. We don't have to have emotional resiliency. In fact, we can get votes and get stuff done by being the opposite, right? And I think that brings us to this next question I have, which I've always felt a lot of pressure to try really [00:38:00] hard not to trigger people, right?
Specifically people who maybe don't have the skills to self regulate. Yeah. And now I'm sort of like my, I don't know, man, I never could get it right. I always said something in a little too intense of a tone for people, you know, like no matter how hard I tried, it was, it was never enough. So I'm like, I'm sure you've got a bit of that feedback in your work, in your life.
So I just sort of wondered your, your thoughts about that.
Tori: Yeah. So there are two kinds of pieces with that. I think that there's sort of like the neurodivergent piece and then there's also the trauma piece. And I think that, You know, for neurodivergent folks who have experienced trauma, that's like how we connect with one another. It's like first time meeting you,
I'm going to tell you everything about my life story. And I think that for those of us who came up in evangelicalism. We had no kind of, we had, we had no skill set for figuring out who was safe and who wasn't, right? Because again, we were coded to do this fake vulnerability, and then you have to unlearn that [00:39:00] before you can learn actual vulnerability.
And so. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's definitely like, church is very much a place where there's a lot of control aspects and you have to perform in these very specific ways in order to be considered like a, you know, good, like, in good standing at church slash with God. And so, you know, I think that there is also a piece for neurodivergent folks
I think that there's also a piece of that, that like we. I think we have a better, I'm not going to lie, this is, this is just my theory. You can reject it if you want to. It's completely opposite of everything we were told about autistic people for like the last 40, 50 years. But I think that autistic people are often more aware of other people's inabilities and are because of that more able to give people like, specifically like neurotypical people, we are much more able to give [00:40:00] neurotypical people grace than other neurotypical people.
And I don't think that that's like across the board, right? But there was this whole thing about like, well, autism just means you're not capable of empathy, which is like, so you're saying we're all sociopaths, right? Like, okay, check. Like, again, this is, you know, and this is something that I get really riled up about too, and I'm not going to go down this path, but like diagnosing other people on the internet.
Don't do it. You can't do that. Sorry. Uh, not cool. But I think that because there is something in a lot of us where we recognize, the places that we fall short, because we're constantly reminded of it, but I think that that has, I think for a lot of us that has also taught us like, Oh, other people fall short in all kinds of different ways.
And I can hold space for that because I know what that is like. I know what it's like for someone to not hold space for me in X, Y, or Z, you know, keeping up like the house, if you're, you know, somebody [00:41:00] who, who stays at home with kids, right. It's like, this is something that I struggle with.
My brain is just not programmed to be like super organized. Great at organizing, cannot keep anything organized to save my life. So. I think that, and this is something that I've been, this is something that I've been having conversations with my autistic friends about specifically over the last, you know, over the last summer, over the last several months.
This like, okay, how do we get to a point where we can be in community with other people beyond our just biological families? And we can be in proximity to people and we have the skills to resolve conflict and we have the ability to be emotionally resilient. We have the ability to, take a pause or a timeout if there is conflict that can't be resolved in this moment.
Like Millennials all have had this conversation. I don't know why we have, I mean, I do know why, it's capitalism, about like, Hey, let's like buy a [00:42:00] piece of land and like have a couple of houses on it and like raise some animals and like grow some food. You know, it's capitalism.
That is why people have this conversation. But I'm like, we do not have the skills to be in that, to be in a relationship with people like that. We
DL: Absolutely not.
Tori: We do not have that
DL: Thank you for saying that.
Tori: skill set.
DL: As someone who has lived in intentional communities for multiple years of my life, we don't have those skills.
Tori: That's not actually our fault. Nobody was doing that, right? So we didn't see it demonstrated. We weren't taught it, as some just, I don't know, exercise in understanding ways to go about the world. Like nobody even gave us like the cognitive ability to sort of understand these concepts.
And so, you know, like, and I love, I absolutely love the idea of being in intentional community. But it was like, what? We don't have the skillset. And once [00:43:00] we have the skills and the tools, we still need practice to be able to get good at them. And, yeah, I, I think that that is, that is where I am trying to get people to, like, that's what I'm trying to get people to pay more attention to now is I, I think that like true emotional resilience, at the end of the day, you have to be in proximity to other humans.
In order to build that skill and what's hard about that is you have to be in proximity to other humans who are not going to shame you for failing
DL: Yeah.
Tori: and there aren't that many of those people in the world. You know, there are not that many people who will actually give you grace and space to grow and like have those conversations with you and like take something off your plate if it's something you're not good at, right?
Like that's not a reality we have ever even. You know, that's not even science fiction for us. That is not something that anyone has conceptualized. Yeah. I have other things that I could say about that. But that's [00:44:00] like, like, this is why we need to build these skill sets! Because we're not going to survive capitalism unless we do this.
DL: And so like you're basically saying like this is even bigger than trying to interact in a way where you're not triggering people, you're saying like all of us, baseline have got to be building up the skills to be emotionally resilient, and I think it's sort of depressing to hear you say that, but I think that's so true and yet it's you know, we're having this conversation today, you know October 26,
There's so much going on in the world including in Gaza including our own President supporting, unequivocally, certain actions, all this stuff, I think so many people right now are like, what comes next? You know, like, what comes next? We are seeing, totalitarian narratives, crumble in front of us, right?
And so part of me is like, To me, that points to, at least we've built up some skills, right? [00:45:00] During the past few years of, of trying to do some of this stuff, but we're certainly not, quite there yet. But that's why I'm like, this conversation to me seems so important is because the ways that shame, chronic shame can show up in our bodies and in the bodies of the people we share neighborhoods with, right?
It has real impact. And I do often feel quite overwhelmed in the totality of that. Sorry, that's not a question. That was a blathering. Mm
Tori: I just don't think about it. I just think about like, okay, who are my people? Who do I know has the ability to hold space for me, but also call me out on my bullshit because I'm a person, so I have that also.
DL: Mm
Tori: So, yeah, honestly, I just try not to think about it. I'm like, there are some people who are trying to do this work and my goal is just to [00:46:00] connect with them because again, that is the only way we're going to survive this, I think, I feel. You know, I don't know what is next, I, but I know for god damn sure we need each other to get through it.
DL: Yeah. Yeah.
Tori: And needing other people and not having the skill set to hold space for other people, not having the skill set to articulate what your needs are and where you are failing so that you can get support, that, all of that precludes us from the kind of community that we need in order to survive.
DL: Mm hmm. Oh, okay. Talking to you is like really interesting to me because I like love everything you're saying, but it is challenging. just from like a trauma cave perspective.
Tori: Mhm. No, I know. I'm like,
DL: I love it though.
Tori: I think I haven't done a good job articulating [that] I am also working on this. This is not at all like a, like a, you people will need to get your shit together. Like, I also do not have my [00:47:00] shit together. I promise.
DL: Yeah. But I think that's so nice to hear because it's also true that the conversation around healing and self-care and all that, it's like, okay, there's a lot of different conversations happening and the one I'm interested is at the nervous system level. And that's like right where you are,
Which is why I love talking to you so much. I just, I wondered if you had any thoughts, 'cause I really wanna ask you this, and I'm sorry to do this at near the end, but if you have thoughts on sort of like, societal shame and how that is used to help or not help or what are, it's like, what are some of your thoughts?
Because that has come up for me where I'm like, okay, it's clear it's not good for anybody for me to just continue to interact with people who get triggered, you know, by what I say. And at the same time, when we look and say, like, what happened in the aftermath of World War II, right? Germany as an entire society was [00:48:00] just shamed, like, in so many different levels.
And so I'm just curious about your thoughts on some of those things.
Tori: Yep. I think that, you know, as I said, with church, like if shame didn't work, people wouldn't use it. I think that there is like, there are all kinds of shame that get weaponized against people. I think it is almost completely backwards who gets shamed and who doesn't, because I think that if you are, if you were going through life, as a pattern causing harm to people, right? That like, shame can sometimes be a non violent tool, not always, right? But it can be, to help you like, again, like get your stuff together. But, you know, on a societal level, I mean, I think that, shame is why the US, like people in the US, are having this, allergic reaction to any kind of accountability around race and racism, and have, again, no [00:49:00] resilience around these conversations, because we don't have the tools, we don't have the skill set, we haven't seen it demonstrated, we have no safe place to practice it.
And so this is what I'm trying to change about the world. That's like so egotistical. This is like what I'm trying to like scream from the rooftops is we have to have spaces where we can learn this stuff. Because you can completely mess up and still be brought back. Like, Germany is not just Nazism.
That is not the [alarm goes off] Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I have all these alarms on my phone because I have ADHD and I will get nothing done
DL: I love it! This is a tool we need in our lives to get stuff done. No shame!
Tori: Like my timer and my reminders and I'm like, I do not get anything done. Unless I'm carrying around my little timer, and I'm serious about that. So, but yeah, so this is what, this is something that's like really animating for [00:50:00] me right now is we have to find a way to build space for people to just show up as themselves and fuck up and also
Not get chased out of the building, not get chased out of the space because they said the wrong thing, right? Or because they hold a problematic view. You know, I think, again, I think accountability is good, but accountability, you know, I think online accountability is kind of fake, to be honest.
DL: Yes.
Tori: You know, I, I think that again, it can, it can be, that's online accountability is weaponizing shame against someone most of the time.
You know, I think that sometimes it is the right thing to do if a person, I'm not going to name names, but you know, a comedian or whoever, says stuff that's really messed up. For example, I think that, you know, that is a place where shame is a nonviolent tool. If they don't have anyone in their lives, you can tell them like, Hey, what's, why are you doing this?
Like, not okay, bro. Like, [00:51:00] sit down. So I think obviously shame evolved in our nervous systems for a reason. Like that shame response exists to help keep us alive. So there is a piece of it that isn't inherently unhealthy, right? Just like nervous system activation is not inherently unhealthy.
What you said about it's not good for me to be having conversations with people who have no emotional resilience and just get triggered by everything I say, like that is so incredibly profound. And I like, that is just so that's such a like beautiful, thoughtful analysis. Of how we spend our energy, right?
How, how we show up in community. Not wasting the limited time that we have fighting with people who are committed to misunderstanding us. You know, because we could again, like ostensibly, we could be spending some of that time building community with people who are like, Hey, I'm your [00:52:00] people.
I'm gonna show up, right?
DL: Exactly! Yeah.
Tori: We don't have that. We, and so, but, and I know I keep saying we don't have that and that sounds like, that sounds like such a downer thing to say and it kind of is, but the reason I keep saying this and I'm, you're teaching me something right now in this conversation, I need to be a little bit better about articulating the fact that like, this is all stuff you can learn.
Like, none of this is out of reach for anybody, like, it just isn't. These are all skills that we can learn. We are all capable of practicing these skills. We are all capable of acquiring these tools and finding safe ways to use them. My conclusion in all of this is not like, oh my God, we're screwed.
Like, that is not it. Right? My conclusion is. Oh, we need to learn this right now. Like, we need to commit to learning these skills right now. Because, again, we need each other. Culturally, we've been told, like, No, you don't need anybody. Bootstraps. You figure it out on your own. [00:53:00] Because, you know, that's how God made...
I don't know. I don't even know. And it's like, no, that's, that's not true. Again, humans didn't evolve as like, these solo creatures, you didn't like, grow up and then move out of your parents cave and wander off into the night and like, find a wife somewhere and then you have your own, like, that's, that was not possible.
Humans could not have survived that, like, nuclear family whatever. We would have all starved or
You know, there are not enough hours in the day for us to do all of the things just for ourselves. I think we're seeing that again right now, because it's like, how are we supposed to get everything done? Like, if I'm working 40 hours a week, how am I supposed to get everything done? So again, like, I am, I'm convinced that, you know, the people who are listening to this are top tier in terms of like having the willingness to, to show up and to acquire these skills to learn to [00:54:00] practice them, to learn self compassion, so that we can actually be compassionate towards other people.
I think that, yeah, that, that is, I need to be better about saying that and reminding people of that.
DL: No, you're amazing! I think you're doing a great job. And as you were talking, I was sort of like, we both, you and I are parents, right? And caregivers to children. And it's like, there's that same sort of urgency, like. Our kids have to learn these things, right? And I, I think that's probably happening to a lot of millennials too, is like, we are learning as we're parenting.
And it's, it's been a pretty profound reciprocal relationship for me when I was taught that should not be a reciprocal relationship. And so just learning, right, from my kids, the importance of these skills. So I, I just,
Tori: Mm hmm.
DL: I don't know, I, I thank you so much for the work you're doing and just the place you're at.
I just hear so much wisdom into, this is what the future looks like. It's learning how to be vulnerable with other human beings
Tori: Mm hmm.
DL: and how to move forward [00:55:00] in building up. These skills, and I think that looks different for every person, but I am definitely on that journey as well. The people who are listening are as well. And I guess to end, you know, if you want to just tell us a few things that, are giving you life right now, or pleasure, or are, regulating.
You already mentioned breathwork, which I love, so anything else? Mmm.
Tori: Yeah, I mean, my top things are, are, uh, breathwork and meditation, but I'm kind of all over the map right now. I, have lots of green things growing in my house that I am. Very earnestly attempting to keep alive, and but like being in green space is good for your nervous system.
Right? So hiking is like kind of my go to self -egulation space. And there are buckets of data about being in any kind of green space and how good that is for people first for nervous system regulation. Because again, we evolved in the [00:56:00] in the forest and like, that's just what our bodies are used to and still need amazingly.
So yeah, like any kind of green space, any kind of like being outside is just like my absolute fave right now. And yeah, I mean, I think that like taking, making sure that I'm taking time for myself to like invest in myself before I try to like show up and parent, because I'm kinder to myself, and kinder to my kids if I am doing those things. I have a little, I posted up a little video or a reel on Instagram, a couple of months ago that was like a bunch of free ways to care for your nervous system.
Because, again, I think that that's really important, and I think that a lot of the time, you know, in certain circles, self care is kind of this, like, going to the spa, you know?
DL: Must be nice, huh?
Tori: Right, right, but it's also, that's, that's, that's also not what that is, right? Like, there is a difference [00:57:00] between self care and self indulgence.
I'm just gonna, sorry for being rude. But, You know, for me, because it's something that I'm like still capable of doing, like running is, is really, really helpful, especially when it's dreary. I bought myself a happy light though, because, you know, we live in Portland
DL: Yeah, we do!
Tori: and need to survive. But yeah, and just creating like little rituals for myself, you know, it's like, oh, I'm just going to get up in the morning before I do anything else and just like make myself a cup of tea. Not going to check my email, not going to like look at text messages or go on social media. Like just, just little things like that of putting myself, putting myself first, quote unquote. Like that sounds kind of weird in that context. But yeah, Oh, my other thing, my, one of my top favorite things, one of my top favorite, whatever that means.
Right now is as a kid, I loved arts and crafts. And so over the years I have collected [00:58:00] like a bunch of paints and glitter and like cardstock and all of these different art supplies, stickers. Well, I love stickers. I'm almost 40. I fucking love stickers and just indulging like little Tori who, you know, we didn't have enough money for like paint and glitter.
Like that was, that was a luxury, right? Like that was a, every once in a while the library will like. Have a craft day. But I loved that. And so like, yeah, caring for little Tori, also very, very helpful, very enjoyable, very fun, and helps my nervous system regulate.
DL: I love that. I love it so much. I used to really think inner child work was weird, and now I'm like, oh, it's fun. Like, you, of course, there's some sad parts, but there's like some really fun, ways to reclaim being a child, when you weren't really allowed to be a child in certain
Tori: Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.
DL: [00:59:00] that's so lovely to hear. And would you just tell people where they can find you? Cause you have lots of different projects. What, you know, tell people where they can find you and, and continue to learn from you.
Tori: Yeah. So my main thing is I have been putting out an anti racism newsletter. It's free, it's just like on my website, which is toriglass.com, t o r i glass. com, just in case there was some confusion there. And I am on Instagram a lot at White Homework trying to help people. regulate their nervous systems because we need each other.
And so like constantly being activated by other people is not going to work. Like that is not going to cut it. So you need to learn some skills and we need to have safe, safe spaces to learn some skills. But yeah, so I'm putting stuff on there about, you know, research around, green spaces and how to care for your nervous system without like, having to go out and spend a million dollars, and, you [01:00:00] know, like, how does stuff like, how does stuff like marijuana impact, like, nervous system regulation, and, you know, kind of going through, and I try to, like, I try to be really, because people ask, I try to be really, like, I try to be really good about, like, letting people know, like, where I'm finding this information, because, you know, that also, we have to, we have, we are at a point where we need to be able to, like, figure out the quality of the information we're getting.
And so, yeah. at White Homework on Instagram. I'm a little bit on Twitter still, sometimes when I think of a thing to say. And, also my nervous system has adjusted to Twitter after having been on it for like 13 years. So, it's easier for me than Instagram is.
DL: Twitter? Wow.
Tori: Yeah. Oh, for sure.
Especially because I don't have to write in that like 1. 5 size font on Twitter. Like there's actual like, you can read words and it's not this teensy tiny little font and like blocks of text. [01:01:00] But yeah, so @toriglass, I'm still over there and like slowly trying to like, you know, move people elsewhere, I guess.
DL: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Tori. I hope everybody listening or reading the transcript, they go and check out all your work. I, I love following you. I have for so many years and I've just seen you just, you just think so deeply about things and you really care about humanity and so I think those will always be a testament to your work. And, yeah, so thanks so much for being here today.
Tori: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Interview with Tori Williams Douglass on Shame