Thank you for sharing this. Writing these posts must take a lot of energy and I appreciate you taking the time and energy to articulate what so many of us experienced, too.
For the past few years since leaving my old cult, I have struggled so much with anger and shame at myself for how I fell and fought so hard to be the Good Christian Girl (i.e., zero critical thinking skills) specifically when one of my best friends saw through it and questioned so many things starting when we were teenagers. Sometimes I still feel so dumb, though I understand better how much my brain was focused on survival. I was surrounded by kids my age with wildly abusive fathers and thought my family life was 'normal and safe'. Turns out, my dad just wasn't a narcissist, but is also ND and his loads of unprocessed trauma deeply affected us. I was so disconnected from myself that I couldn't see how traumatized I was. Waking up to it in my late twenties and thirties feels like I've been cheated of so much.
I'm so tired of processing trauma. I grieve the fact that I am just now, in my mid-late thirties, understanding not just that I do have needs but how to advocate for them, while also having to meet the needs of four children. How different would my life have been, if I had understood my own neurodivergence before adulthood? Parenthood? If I had grown up confident that my needs weren't a burden and that I could actually be in touch with what I want/need, before losing myself in parenthood?
It's not that we can't find ourselves now, and we are. But it's so fucking hard.
I feel this!! Thank you for sharing your experiences. The parenting thing is such a big question (and one that it feels moms in particular are definitely forbidden from even wondering about). The possibility of neurodivergence only became really real to me after the birth of my second kid, when I was struck by how freaking hard this all felt and how few resources I suddenly seemed to have for self regulation. Lots of care to you!
I absolutely identify with so much of what you're saying here, Stephanie. It's like disassembling and reassembling a car that's running...with your kids inside. It's TERRIBLE.
I went through the process of deconstructing toxic family-of-origin trauma while my kids were young and it was SO hard. (I'm discovering I'm autistic when they're teenagers. Which is also hard, but is not my first rodeo of this sort, so it is easier).
And though I just felt SO DUMB for not realizing how toxic my family was, with time I'm starting to wonder if your thirties are actually a -pretty developmentally normal- time to deconstruct stuff. Reading "Falling Upwards" by Rohr a few years back made me realize it is a time where we finally have the emotional tools, life experience and the crucible of parenthood (or other caregiving) to realize the work must be done.
So yes, we have been robbed. But also, we're not dumb, or behind. We are ready to do this work at the very moment where we're safe enough to do it, and not a moment sooner. You have been protecting yourself for years from the chaos and trauma of doing this work -for a damn good reason-. Period.
oooooooh is the mid to late 30s a normal time especially for people socialized as female who had kids young, I wonder? My inner world was absolutely on the back burner because I had kids and needed to take care of their needs constantly. This year was the first year I was a). in therapy and b). both of my kids were in school at the same time for a few months at least.
I would imagine this all has a LOT to do with when you began to do the work. I mean, in my very not-professional opinion! I am being highly speculative!
Still: I was talking to a therapist the other day about my kids, and she said that she often sees this dynamic: after one kid goes finishes with a developmental tough spot, the other kid starts their own difficulties--because sub-consciously they wait until there's space for them to melt down/struggle. Which is COMPLETELY true with my own kids.
And when I first realized my parents were toxic, I mentioned I waited three years before getting therapy? I think a lot of that was that I knew deep down I did not have the bandwidth to add any more strain to my psyche when my kids were 2 and 5. But when they were 5 and 8 I did.
I just think we're wiser than we give ourselves credit for, even as kids. Which is why it pisses me off so much that people so rarely honor and just have basic curiosity about kids when they're struggling because kids are often -more accurate- about what they need and that things are wrong, but just don't have words. They don't have the BS that adults do.
I am in this exactly same place. Yes. I am 37 and in the last couple of years, spurred on by big life events, honesty with myself and looking for honesty from others, I felt the unraveling. I started to pull strings that were loose. I did not have mental capacity before this thirties time (3 young kids, systems helping me survive, needing my parents and others). This thirties theory makes a lot of sense. Now I am finally listening to my feelings of “this doesn’t seem right” towards systems and people. I have the space to realized I do not want to be sponsored in any way. I am looking forward to what God and I are making with this left over string, but the pile can sit for awhile too. This is a long life process. That’s new for me to be able to let things sit and be a messy pile. The pile of string is beautiful in its own right.
It’s a gift to hear this story, Stephanie. ❤️ It’s okay that it took you time to unpack and see yourself and your life. We all travel at our own pace. Hugs!
In fact, I’d like to point out how unusual it is to see and follow the truth about ourselves AT ALL. I know geriatrics who have never ever done that work. So it’s a miraculous thing that you, Stephanie, are offering such an example to your sweet kids who will one day understand your bravery.
this is really a good point. it is SO hard to do this work but we see what happens to folks as they age and don't do it. It is a miracle to wake up more aware of yourself and determined to pursue autonomy, no matter where we are in life when that happens!
This is one of the best things I've ever read. Thank you, friend. I'm really truly in awe of how you can write so clearly and beautifully and extensively (I mean that in the absolute best way) about this. IT IS SO FUCKING HELPFUL to see it all laid out. Especially since I'm over here "working in fragments" to quote Willie James Jennings (or is it someone else?). Collecting old James Dobson (and other nasty) books. Looking through old memorabilia. Writing 40-word poems. I can't tell you how grateful I am that you're processing it all and sharing it with us like this. SUCH A GIFT.
I just finished listening to those 2 Behind the Bastards episodes (on your recommendation) and I'm plotting a James Dobson book bonfire. I'm torn between wanting to take him down and preserving my peace.
And I loooooove what you said about your parents. I took out a few poems from my latest book that I knew would reeeeally hurt them (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE TRUE) but left some in that will also be painful for them probably, but I also want them to know what they did/are doing.
GREAT BIG SIGH.
Love you much. Thank you for this. I'm not a Christian now either. I find the whole thing not only toxic, but also probably not that much true and also really boring. We'll see how I feel in a few months, years, whatever.
Also, today would have been my 25th anniversary if my husband hadn't cheated and left. The silver lining in the silver anniversary is that wading through all this toxic shit is much easier without him here.
Again, THANK YOU for sharing this. I hope you know how much healing you bring. xx
Marla I love you so much. I do love my parents a lot, and it's hard to post this because I know it could be hurtful to them. But it's my story, and I try to tell it carefully. I can't believe you take the time to come out here and encourage ME and a bunch of other people on what is probably a very painful day for you. And you do it with humor! The theo bros are all SO boring but this little community we are building sure isn't!!!!!
“And also really boring”- I snort-laughed. Right! Who wants to spend another second centering white cis etc etc men and their abusive, stupid, narrow-minded theology? Not us. We’ve got our own pleasure to pursue (and hopefully someday some kind of communal recovery, whatever that looks like!).
I’m an adult convert to a different denomination, and this really validates how I feel about raising my kids within this faith. There is so much pressure that says being a good parent, a truly loving parent, a faithful parent, means doing everything to ensure your kids stay within the fold. Having made the choice to become Christian as an adult (raised without a faith tradition), it feels viscerally wrong to me to insist upon a belief system for my kids. I try to mentally frame it as an invitation - I will share my faith with them insofar as they are curious and wish to participate, but I really want them to have have the choice to choose it for themselves - or not. When you say that high control religion teaches children that love is conditional, you hit the nail on the head of my deepest fears as a parent. I would hate for them to grow up feeling that I, or God, is disappointed in them for not fitting the mould of my faith tradition.
My story is wildly different to yours but you give me much to reflect on and learn from.
This resonates for me! I tell my child that this (a loving God who satisfies divine justice by his own death) is what we believe, but that IT IS UP TO GOD AND MY CHILD where they land. Meanwhile, we practice kindness, work for justice, and embrace the needs of our city as if Christianity were true. But I am holding space for him to develop his own worldview over time. If God is real, God will provide that opportunity for relationship.
Adding-- meanwhile, he is deeply and profoundly loved BECAUSE HE IS OUR CHILD. Not because of any behavior or brilliance, any choice or innate trait, on his part. I will always be his mother and he will always be my child.
“But one of the most devastating impacts of childhood indoctrination for me has been that I have been trained from a very early age to be ever-critical of myself. and not trust my own thoughts or feelings as good or worthy of listening to. So now it sort of feels like my full time job to learn to accept myself. I still have a longing for all my years of being a Christian to make sense, for all of my hard work to gain love and acceptance by being a hyper-religious person to have meaning. It’s a deep grief to recognize that what I gave my life to for decades did not deliver what it promised.”
Thanks for being so vulnerable. The whole, not trusting yourself, believing your thoughts are valid…I feel that. I also have been diagnosed with OCD in my adulthood, which makes thinking I can obtain certainty feel like an actual possibility. I’m in the process of realizing we can never be certain on the side of things, but also realizing that the thoughts and conclusions I do come to can come from me. It doesn’t always have to be other peoples opinions. Specifically white males opinions. So, of course the question I always come to is Jesus? What do we do with him? I guess when we talk about deconstruction, it feels like we are still keeping Jesus, but not calling ourselves a Christian at all feels like leaving him behind. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. I’m just curious how you view that?
oh, the connection between OCD and believing we can intellectualize our way to being perfect/right/defeating pain and grief and anxiety . . . that is so, so real. And so much OCD/disordered thinking can hide in evangelical spiritual language. I am unpacking all of this as well!
For me, Jesus is really connected to my OCD. He was always held up as the standard by which we should all live--but he was perfect! So it was the perpetual carrot on a stick to dangle in front of folks like me. I no longer want to be Jesus or even live like Jesus. I do think he is one of the most fascinating ethicists in all of history, and in the future I would love to explore his ethics with scholars from a variety of backgrounds. But for now, I need a break, even from Jesus.
ha this is funny you phrase it this way because I feel like the opposite is a good description of where I landed: "Okay, God/Jesus, I'm done calling you and trying to live up to your endless tasks and to-do lists and trying to get in touch. You know where to find me. Call if you want or don't, it's fine. Here if you need me, but I'm not waiting up." haha
I wanted to cheer when I read this. The pandemic allowed me to make a quiet exit from my church and I'm never going back. After a year away I realized I don't want to be Christian anymore. I also don't want to be in the Exvangelical, deconstructing space because they recycle the same old conversations with the same dynamics. I want a clean break. Not from the people, but from the harmful ideas.
Guilt and shame keep reaching out their tendrils trying to entrap me again, trying to convince me that a good life isn't possible if I'm severed from "the truth". But I have to believe that a good life is possible without the cycle of doubt and abuse that I grew up with. When I open up my eyes and actually look around I realize there are other possibilities. There are people who are modeling unconditional love and seeking justice in the world very separate from Christianity. But more than that, I can figure out my own way instead of following someone else.
It's strange because I'm so thankful for my parents' messy divorce a few years back because it was the beginning of unraveling the story I've been telling myself. At the time I felt like unpacking my family story was traumatic. But now I realize the undoing isn't traumatic, it's empowering. It's seeing the childhood trauma in a new light that felt like trauma.
In so many ways choice was taken away from us. It's so empowering to say no to it all.
I think in exvangelical/deconstructionist spaces a lot of people are still operating out of fight/flight responses and I am really trying to own my own triggers and move towards a life where I'm not incredibly stressed out all the time! And that is sort of the norm for lots of activist/theology/exvangelical spaces. And I just CANNOT do that anymore. It's empowering to say no to living in a constant state of activation!
Hi, Bethany! Your name just popped up in my email since you responded to my comment, and my heart always pounds when I see "Bethany" in my inbox ever since my sister Bethany disowned me for being a heretic. Sigh. Glad it was you!! :)
This year I started asking myself, “what makes me happy? What brings me joy?” because life has been pretty joyless. Isn’t it weird to be 39/40 before even considering asking myself this?! A basic question like, what do I like doing with my time? All my energy and thoughts went to, “what does God want from me? What will help others?” with the promise that being in God’s will would bring me joy. I have also landed in the deconverted camp after about a 5 year journey.
I feel like nobody understands when I try and explain that 'what makes me happy?' is an incredibly difficult and fraught question for me to answer! But it's been so helpful for me to realize that this is a direct result of childhood religious indoctrination, and not some bizarre character flaw or shameful lack of self-awareness!
I always love the idea in the catechism -- why did God make us? -- God made us because it pleased God to do so. We give God joy just by existing. God not only wants us "to be happy" -- God just wants us to do our thing, to be here now, because God basically likes us the way we are. I think of the moment in the movie "Chariots of Fire" when the super-Christian runner Eric Liddle explains to his sister that running isn't un-Christian -- that when he runs "I can feel His pleasure." Isn't that true when *I* run, too, even though I run a 14 minute mile? isn't it true when my kids run around and laugh and play? I think it's not only OK for us to ask "what gives me joy?" -- that is one of the most faithful questions we can ask. What is my basic nature? How do I fulfill that? Eat when I am hungry, eat the delicious thing, move my body, do the job I enjoy more, sleep when I am tired. I think one of the deep dissonances that conservative Christian faith has with the Bible is that one of the messages of the Bible is that God loves human beings and actually wants them to thrive, in their elemental nature.
I could have written this. I’m practicing some radical autonomy myself lately. Wouldn’t call myself a Christian anymore and it’s so strange, especially as I have 5 kids, some of whom were raised in the church for the first 5-6 years of their lives. Thanks for sharing!
To me this feels like a long time coming (in the best way). Thank you. Thank you for putting your incredible voice to so many of the things so many of us feel and have been through. So looking forward to hearing more from you on this topic.
And also thank you for leaving it open, letting us in in the middle without a lable or a pretty bow on top. Because you're right, in a lot of deconstruction conversations there is too much emphasis on black and white. I'm here for all the gray area.
Right now I still find Chrisitanity life-giving, and being part of a church life-giving (religious control was NOT part of my abusive childhood, thank goodness), yet I am deconverting hard right now from Christian supremacy--the idea that Christianity is necessarily better than any other belief system. My PCUSA church is not out-and-out evangelical, but it is evangelical-leaning, and on the conservative side of the denomination. On the plus side, I am able to be honest about my liberal theology there (there's an emphasis on freedom of conscience in presbyterianism). But being in leadership the past three years as an elder was hard, mostly because so much of the way we talk about WHY church matters is to say we need to convert everyone. Which...I think is not only unhelpful and a bad reason to be in church, but also, I think it breeds smug self-satisfaction -always- and leads to all kinds of abuse and toxic thinking. It's tough: this particular church is my extended family. My actual extended family was decimated by my toxic childhood--I really don't want to leave these aunties and uncles who I have so much history with especially since I am able to be myself there, even if I'm out of the "normal" theologically. Also, my husband is more conservative than I am and would not be comfortable in a truly universalist church. So! I stay, but feel the weariness of much of the religious language just not really meeting me where I am, but having the community absolutely fill in gaps and connect me. I wish it were easier to find like-minded people and for me to form community, but it's not.
I love this and I think it's so good that it feels life-giving to you. Krispin is in a similar spot, and I love that we can caveat and say "right now it feels good." Because that really, truly matters! And that's why we try and carve out some spaces like right here, because it IS NOT EASY.
oh, thanks for this. Yes, the 'right now' feels important. I have to remind myself that being part of my church (or any church) or a particular way of living out faith is -for now-, and I am called to change if that changes. Because clinging to this stuff because we 'have to' is just more of the same shit. It needs to be freely embraced, or not at all.
I just feel grateful for the fact that you’ve found some freedom, Danielle. Thank you for offering the same to us.
Also... I can relate to the sentiment that any movement against evangelicalism really feels like the same fundamentalism, just in the opposite direction. I feel weary to the rules altogether and I’m eager for a way to cultivate a broader vision of myself, the world and God. You aren’t alone there.
"My job currently is to refuse to believe or say anything in order to receive love, care, and attention" will probably become a sticky note all over my house.
One of the biggest differences between my childhood trauma and a lot of others is I didn't grow up with evangelical parents. I was taking myself (by walking or getting rides) to my church. They would ground me and regularly withhold church community from me, largely to minimize me coming in contact with adults who might get close enough to notice the abuse I was experiencing at home. I'm unsure how to feel about the fact that my parents attempt to keep me isolated through abusive means also let me have access to things like other denominations and a large bookcase of Jung, Vonnegut, and science. There are parts of the strict evangelical upbringing I saw up-close, but were never in my house - but wanted.
I'm with you, Amberlee--religion was not part of my abusive household (though my parents didn't mind me getting really into it). I'm grateful that God was not roped into the high-control whackadoodle dynamic of my family. It was already oppressive enough without religious abuse. And yes, I WANTED my parents to be "real" Christians and teach me how to be a "real" Christian. It has been confusing with my own kids to know how to invite (using Gina's word from above) them into faith while not pressuring them. (Which has resulted in them opting out. Which makes me sad but also glad that I did not cram it down their throats).
I really struggle to put my thoughts into words... so often when I read your words I feel understood and seen. I just resonate with this all so much. I started this process after my second child was born nearly 5 years ago and it was so lonely then. But feels less lonely now. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing this. It resonates so deeply with me. I left Christianity about 15 years ago (with a whisper not a bang) frustrated with my Christian college, no longer believing in a higher power, dealing with my parents' cancers, but I've had to go back the past few years and work through the religious trauma. I grew up like you did and I find myself thinking about something that happened to me as a kid that everyone thought was normal and just shouting "I was a child!" An instagram post a while back that shook me was like "Did your parents pray the devil out of you as a kid?"- the more I thought about this, the more I reckoned with the fact that I was a (autistic) toddler and perhaps invoking demons when I had a tantrum did more harm than good. Part of my personal struggle is that my parents are dead and I can't ever talk about this with them. It's a blessing because they didn't live to be Trumpers and I can hold out the hope that I would have convinced them to not be) but also there's a lot of anger there.
On learning of my son's ASD diagnosis, I started to realize that my parents both were on almost certainly on the spectrum, and my husband's father was too. My mom is still living.
I'm in this weird place of wanting my son to be accommodated and loved JUST AS HE IS and refusing to spend time around my mother who demands that her religious "worldview" infiltrate all the conversations, judges everything in black and white, and might be a Trumper, too. I will not accommodate her neurodiversity because of how hateful the manifestation of it is to me. I respect myself enough not to sit through her lectures (of course, she does not have theory of mind enough to understand that I don't agree with her). I haven't cut her off but I have made myself dramatically less available. Which means her several prayer groups are almost certainly praying for our relationship.
So what do we do with these high control parents if their high control stems from their autism?
You can let them be accountable for their actions and the relational distance their strident beliefs cause them. Even autistic people can do the hard work of healing their traumas/interrogating their worldviews (I am proof of that!). I think many times people can get so insular and family dynamics serve to perpetuate unhealthy beliefs and enmeshment. So one of the best things to do is set boundaries and honor yourself/your kids!
I’ve been wrestling with this question as well. A very religious, very controlling (when we were growing up) parent who is almost certainly on the spectrum. I really resonate with how you put the issue. What I’ve been slowly coming to realize is that I’m drawn to a lot of autistic people and enjoy them, yet I can’t say the same about this parent. It’s more an emotional immaturity on their part and narcissistic qualities they also embody. So we currently chat briefly on holidays about surface issues and that’s the extent of the relationship (I live halfway across the country). I’m guessing it’s more than just neurodiversity that has you not wanting to engage with your mom...
Anonymom I can totally relate to this. Several years ago my stepmother pointed out to me her hypothesis that my dad is likely on the spectrum. This is mostly not a terrible thing, and he's been, over the years, my more stable and more reliable parent. Both my parents are highly inflexible and this was hard for their relationship, for their parenting, and for me. I went home for the holidays this year and ended up having a very productive discussion about my son's autism with my stepmother. My (undiagnosed and uncurious autistic) dad did his best to check out of the whole thing (he was doing a puzzle!) When I mentioned that it runs in families and that I have some autistic traits as well he said (as he says of everything he doesn't like about me) "you must get it from your mother." Totally agree with DL that in that case, sadly, he reaps the relational distance that sows. My stepmother, on the other hand, was very open -- once you start looking through an autism lens, "it's everywhere!"
As for my mom -- I went no-contact with her shortly after our first child was born. This is an ongoing source of discomfort for me, and there's a lot of shame in estrangement, but I felt so judged, lectured, and shamed that I dissociated in her presence and couldn't retain the integrity I needed to parent. (It was when she told me I that swaddling my baby made me a Nazi that I realized this was not your normal grandmother-mother interaction.)
So yeah -- if they can't give you and your child the unconditional love you need, you are going to be spending your time mostly in other places. Which is sad for everyone.
My mom is not an evangelical but she does not hesitate to tell anyone who asks about our estrangement about my "mental health problems." I've made my peace with that.
I'm sorry to hear this. Yes, to the concept of sowing and reaping! And accepting emotional immaturity in a child, but as you all have said, not in an adult. (Accepting while saying "if you want to have and keep friends (one of HIS goals), then a useful strategy to gauge interest may be to listen for follow-up questions.")
I got this point in June of 2020. You describe so well how it feels. I had the full sad shower scene, like in a movie. I remember telling my non Christian coworker that I felt like I'd gotten out of a cult. This journey has been freeing and disorienting. I felt adrift for a long time, and often still do. After a long time, and reading about the things I'd been banned from reading like other religions, sexuality, etc; I eventually began experimenting with a small personal spirituality with my own little rituals that I don't have to tell anyone else about if I don't want to. I've recently found that deep inside my inner child still believes that she's going to heaven if God and Jesus is real. At this point in time, I don't intellectually believe that God is a person or hierarchical being, but she's still in there with deep faith and I really don't know what to do with her at the moment. But we'll see.
All that say, it has been and likely will be a life-long journey, but I don't regret it. With a sad smile, I hold a metaphorical flute of champagne to you with a sad smile as we grieve our past lives, our parents decisions, our decisions and forage ahead into the dark searching for our own lights. Cheers. Welcome to the club.
I love the sad shower scene image. It's so freaking emotional! I feel like a teenager in so many ways, and it has been a little fun to just let myself wallow and feel all the feels and listen to a bunch of sad indie music!!!!
Absolutely. I've been getting into the "secular music" I didn't listen to in my youth. Britney Spears has some good songs! Slim Shady is hilarious, and System of a Down is amazing and speaks to my angry soul. I didn't really rebel as a a teen and I feel like I'm getting it out now, but with the awkwardness also still having to be an adult and take care of my own kid.
Thank you for sharing this. Writing these posts must take a lot of energy and I appreciate you taking the time and energy to articulate what so many of us experienced, too.
For the past few years since leaving my old cult, I have struggled so much with anger and shame at myself for how I fell and fought so hard to be the Good Christian Girl (i.e., zero critical thinking skills) specifically when one of my best friends saw through it and questioned so many things starting when we were teenagers. Sometimes I still feel so dumb, though I understand better how much my brain was focused on survival. I was surrounded by kids my age with wildly abusive fathers and thought my family life was 'normal and safe'. Turns out, my dad just wasn't a narcissist, but is also ND and his loads of unprocessed trauma deeply affected us. I was so disconnected from myself that I couldn't see how traumatized I was. Waking up to it in my late twenties and thirties feels like I've been cheated of so much.
I'm so tired of processing trauma. I grieve the fact that I am just now, in my mid-late thirties, understanding not just that I do have needs but how to advocate for them, while also having to meet the needs of four children. How different would my life have been, if I had understood my own neurodivergence before adulthood? Parenthood? If I had grown up confident that my needs weren't a burden and that I could actually be in touch with what I want/need, before losing myself in parenthood?
It's not that we can't find ourselves now, and we are. But it's so fucking hard.
I feel this!! Thank you for sharing your experiences. The parenting thing is such a big question (and one that it feels moms in particular are definitely forbidden from even wondering about). The possibility of neurodivergence only became really real to me after the birth of my second kid, when I was struck by how freaking hard this all felt and how few resources I suddenly seemed to have for self regulation. Lots of care to you!
Thank you! Of yes, the whole “why does this seem to be so much harder for me than it is for other moms?” Oof.
I absolutely identify with so much of what you're saying here, Stephanie. It's like disassembling and reassembling a car that's running...with your kids inside. It's TERRIBLE.
I went through the process of deconstructing toxic family-of-origin trauma while my kids were young and it was SO hard. (I'm discovering I'm autistic when they're teenagers. Which is also hard, but is not my first rodeo of this sort, so it is easier).
And though I just felt SO DUMB for not realizing how toxic my family was, with time I'm starting to wonder if your thirties are actually a -pretty developmentally normal- time to deconstruct stuff. Reading "Falling Upwards" by Rohr a few years back made me realize it is a time where we finally have the emotional tools, life experience and the crucible of parenthood (or other caregiving) to realize the work must be done.
So yes, we have been robbed. But also, we're not dumb, or behind. We are ready to do this work at the very moment where we're safe enough to do it, and not a moment sooner. You have been protecting yourself for years from the chaos and trauma of doing this work -for a damn good reason-. Period.
oooooooh is the mid to late 30s a normal time especially for people socialized as female who had kids young, I wonder? My inner world was absolutely on the back burner because I had kids and needed to take care of their needs constantly. This year was the first year I was a). in therapy and b). both of my kids were in school at the same time for a few months at least.
I would imagine this all has a LOT to do with when you began to do the work. I mean, in my very not-professional opinion! I am being highly speculative!
Still: I was talking to a therapist the other day about my kids, and she said that she often sees this dynamic: after one kid goes finishes with a developmental tough spot, the other kid starts their own difficulties--because sub-consciously they wait until there's space for them to melt down/struggle. Which is COMPLETELY true with my own kids.
And when I first realized my parents were toxic, I mentioned I waited three years before getting therapy? I think a lot of that was that I knew deep down I did not have the bandwidth to add any more strain to my psyche when my kids were 2 and 5. But when they were 5 and 8 I did.
I just think we're wiser than we give ourselves credit for, even as kids. Which is why it pisses me off so much that people so rarely honor and just have basic curiosity about kids when they're struggling because kids are often -more accurate- about what they need and that things are wrong, but just don't have words. They don't have the BS that adults do.
I am in this exactly same place. Yes. I am 37 and in the last couple of years, spurred on by big life events, honesty with myself and looking for honesty from others, I felt the unraveling. I started to pull strings that were loose. I did not have mental capacity before this thirties time (3 young kids, systems helping me survive, needing my parents and others). This thirties theory makes a lot of sense. Now I am finally listening to my feelings of “this doesn’t seem right” towards systems and people. I have the space to realized I do not want to be sponsored in any way. I am looking forward to what God and I are making with this left over string, but the pile can sit for awhile too. This is a long life process. That’s new for me to be able to let things sit and be a messy pile. The pile of string is beautiful in its own right.
Heather this is such an insightful reframe. I do feel like we only have the tools and the bandwidth for so much at one time!
First of all, I’m not fangirling at all that you replied to my comment…secondly, thank you so much.❤️ And hooray for another autistic friend!
ha! I almost literally glanced behind myself and was like "wait, who is she fangirling?" I'm so pleased and honored :D
yes, yay for autistic friends :D
Just want you to know I see you. Thank you for sharing this.
I appreciate you.
It’s a gift to hear this story, Stephanie. ❤️ It’s okay that it took you time to unpack and see yourself and your life. We all travel at our own pace. Hugs!
In fact, I’d like to point out how unusual it is to see and follow the truth about ourselves AT ALL. I know geriatrics who have never ever done that work. So it’s a miraculous thing that you, Stephanie, are offering such an example to your sweet kids who will one day understand your bravery.
this is really a good point. it is SO hard to do this work but we see what happens to folks as they age and don't do it. It is a miracle to wake up more aware of yourself and determined to pursue autonomy, no matter where we are in life when that happens!
Yes, this is true!❤️
Hugs back. I love hugs.😊❤️
Same. Same.
This is so relatable. Who would I even be?? I married so young and had kids right away and no idea what I wanted. 💔
Hugs❤️here’s to finding what we want now and pursuing it, amidst all our responsibilities & grief.
Thank you for saying that. Lots of love to you on this journey.
This is one of the best things I've ever read. Thank you, friend. I'm really truly in awe of how you can write so clearly and beautifully and extensively (I mean that in the absolute best way) about this. IT IS SO FUCKING HELPFUL to see it all laid out. Especially since I'm over here "working in fragments" to quote Willie James Jennings (or is it someone else?). Collecting old James Dobson (and other nasty) books. Looking through old memorabilia. Writing 40-word poems. I can't tell you how grateful I am that you're processing it all and sharing it with us like this. SUCH A GIFT.
I just finished listening to those 2 Behind the Bastards episodes (on your recommendation) and I'm plotting a James Dobson book bonfire. I'm torn between wanting to take him down and preserving my peace.
And I loooooove what you said about your parents. I took out a few poems from my latest book that I knew would reeeeally hurt them (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE TRUE) but left some in that will also be painful for them probably, but I also want them to know what they did/are doing.
GREAT BIG SIGH.
Love you much. Thank you for this. I'm not a Christian now either. I find the whole thing not only toxic, but also probably not that much true and also really boring. We'll see how I feel in a few months, years, whatever.
Also, today would have been my 25th anniversary if my husband hadn't cheated and left. The silver lining in the silver anniversary is that wading through all this toxic shit is much easier without him here.
Again, THANK YOU for sharing this. I hope you know how much healing you bring. xx
Marla I love you so much. I do love my parents a lot, and it's hard to post this because I know it could be hurtful to them. But it's my story, and I try to tell it carefully. I can't believe you take the time to come out here and encourage ME and a bunch of other people on what is probably a very painful day for you. And you do it with humor! The theo bros are all SO boring but this little community we are building sure isn't!!!!!
“And also really boring”- I snort-laughed. Right! Who wants to spend another second centering white cis etc etc men and their abusive, stupid, narrow-minded theology? Not us. We’ve got our own pleasure to pursue (and hopefully someday some kind of communal recovery, whatever that looks like!).
Bonus: I have found that the theobros haaaaate being called boring and extra-hate being ignored. 😎
Cause theo bros pride themselves on being “cool!” Bahaha
Snort laughing here too!
Sounds like today is a heavy day, Marla. Hugs!!
Thank you!
I’m an adult convert to a different denomination, and this really validates how I feel about raising my kids within this faith. There is so much pressure that says being a good parent, a truly loving parent, a faithful parent, means doing everything to ensure your kids stay within the fold. Having made the choice to become Christian as an adult (raised without a faith tradition), it feels viscerally wrong to me to insist upon a belief system for my kids. I try to mentally frame it as an invitation - I will share my faith with them insofar as they are curious and wish to participate, but I really want them to have have the choice to choose it for themselves - or not. When you say that high control religion teaches children that love is conditional, you hit the nail on the head of my deepest fears as a parent. I would hate for them to grow up feeling that I, or God, is disappointed in them for not fitting the mould of my faith tradition.
My story is wildly different to yours but you give me much to reflect on and learn from.
This resonates for me! I tell my child that this (a loving God who satisfies divine justice by his own death) is what we believe, but that IT IS UP TO GOD AND MY CHILD where they land. Meanwhile, we practice kindness, work for justice, and embrace the needs of our city as if Christianity were true. But I am holding space for him to develop his own worldview over time. If God is real, God will provide that opportunity for relationship.
Adding-- meanwhile, he is deeply and profoundly loved BECAUSE HE IS OUR CHILD. Not because of any behavior or brilliance, any choice or innate trait, on his part. I will always be his mother and he will always be my child.
Invitation-what a great way to frame it.
I love this!
“But one of the most devastating impacts of childhood indoctrination for me has been that I have been trained from a very early age to be ever-critical of myself. and not trust my own thoughts or feelings as good or worthy of listening to. So now it sort of feels like my full time job to learn to accept myself. I still have a longing for all my years of being a Christian to make sense, for all of my hard work to gain love and acceptance by being a hyper-religious person to have meaning. It’s a deep grief to recognize that what I gave my life to for decades did not deliver what it promised.”
Every word of this hits home for me.
Thanks for being so vulnerable. The whole, not trusting yourself, believing your thoughts are valid…I feel that. I also have been diagnosed with OCD in my adulthood, which makes thinking I can obtain certainty feel like an actual possibility. I’m in the process of realizing we can never be certain on the side of things, but also realizing that the thoughts and conclusions I do come to can come from me. It doesn’t always have to be other peoples opinions. Specifically white males opinions. So, of course the question I always come to is Jesus? What do we do with him? I guess when we talk about deconstruction, it feels like we are still keeping Jesus, but not calling ourselves a Christian at all feels like leaving him behind. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. I’m just curious how you view that?
oh, the connection between OCD and believing we can intellectualize our way to being perfect/right/defeating pain and grief and anxiety . . . that is so, so real. And so much OCD/disordered thinking can hide in evangelical spiritual language. I am unpacking all of this as well!
For me, Jesus is really connected to my OCD. He was always held up as the standard by which we should all live--but he was perfect! So it was the perpetual carrot on a stick to dangle in front of folks like me. I no longer want to be Jesus or even live like Jesus. I do think he is one of the most fascinating ethicists in all of history, and in the future I would love to explore his ethics with scholars from a variety of backgrounds. But for now, I need a break, even from Jesus.
"But for now, I need a break, even from Jesus." This is me. BYE JESUS. DON'T CALL ME, I'LL CALL YOU.
ha this is funny you phrase it this way because I feel like the opposite is a good description of where I landed: "Okay, God/Jesus, I'm done calling you and trying to live up to your endless tasks and to-do lists and trying to get in touch. You know where to find me. Call if you want or don't, it's fine. Here if you need me, but I'm not waiting up." haha
Ooooh, I like that too, Jenna! "I'm not waiting up!"
I wanted to cheer when I read this. The pandemic allowed me to make a quiet exit from my church and I'm never going back. After a year away I realized I don't want to be Christian anymore. I also don't want to be in the Exvangelical, deconstructing space because they recycle the same old conversations with the same dynamics. I want a clean break. Not from the people, but from the harmful ideas.
Guilt and shame keep reaching out their tendrils trying to entrap me again, trying to convince me that a good life isn't possible if I'm severed from "the truth". But I have to believe that a good life is possible without the cycle of doubt and abuse that I grew up with. When I open up my eyes and actually look around I realize there are other possibilities. There are people who are modeling unconditional love and seeking justice in the world very separate from Christianity. But more than that, I can figure out my own way instead of following someone else.
It's strange because I'm so thankful for my parents' messy divorce a few years back because it was the beginning of unraveling the story I've been telling myself. At the time I felt like unpacking my family story was traumatic. But now I realize the undoing isn't traumatic, it's empowering. It's seeing the childhood trauma in a new light that felt like trauma.
In so many ways choice was taken away from us. It's so empowering to say no to it all.
I think in exvangelical/deconstructionist spaces a lot of people are still operating out of fight/flight responses and I am really trying to own my own triggers and move towards a life where I'm not incredibly stressed out all the time! And that is sort of the norm for lots of activist/theology/exvangelical spaces. And I just CANNOT do that anymore. It's empowering to say no to living in a constant state of activation!
I feel this too. The exvangelical/deconstruction spaces all feel like they're indoors, and I just want everyone to GO OUTSIDE AND SEE THE WORLD!!!
YES!! 🌏🪺✨
Hi, Bethany! Your name just popped up in my email since you responded to my comment, and my heart always pounds when I see "Bethany" in my inbox ever since my sister Bethany disowned me for being a heretic. Sigh. Glad it was you!! :)
Me too D.L. ❤️
This year I started asking myself, “what makes me happy? What brings me joy?” because life has been pretty joyless. Isn’t it weird to be 39/40 before even considering asking myself this?! A basic question like, what do I like doing with my time? All my energy and thoughts went to, “what does God want from me? What will help others?” with the promise that being in God’s will would bring me joy. I have also landed in the deconverted camp after about a 5 year journey.
I feel like nobody understands when I try and explain that 'what makes me happy?' is an incredibly difficult and fraught question for me to answer! But it's been so helpful for me to realize that this is a direct result of childhood religious indoctrination, and not some bizarre character flaw or shameful lack of self-awareness!
Oooh this is an entire book on its own.
I always love the idea in the catechism -- why did God make us? -- God made us because it pleased God to do so. We give God joy just by existing. God not only wants us "to be happy" -- God just wants us to do our thing, to be here now, because God basically likes us the way we are. I think of the moment in the movie "Chariots of Fire" when the super-Christian runner Eric Liddle explains to his sister that running isn't un-Christian -- that when he runs "I can feel His pleasure." Isn't that true when *I* run, too, even though I run a 14 minute mile? isn't it true when my kids run around and laugh and play? I think it's not only OK for us to ask "what gives me joy?" -- that is one of the most faithful questions we can ask. What is my basic nature? How do I fulfill that? Eat when I am hungry, eat the delicious thing, move my body, do the job I enjoy more, sleep when I am tired. I think one of the deep dissonances that conservative Christian faith has with the Bible is that one of the messages of the Bible is that God loves human beings and actually wants them to thrive, in their elemental nature.
I could have written this. I’m practicing some radical autonomy myself lately. Wouldn’t call myself a Christian anymore and it’s so strange, especially as I have 5 kids, some of whom were raised in the church for the first 5-6 years of their lives. Thanks for sharing!
Proud of you, friend. xx
To me this feels like a long time coming (in the best way). Thank you. Thank you for putting your incredible voice to so many of the things so many of us feel and have been through. So looking forward to hearing more from you on this topic.
And also thank you for leaving it open, letting us in in the middle without a lable or a pretty bow on top. Because you're right, in a lot of deconstruction conversations there is too much emphasis on black and white. I'm here for all the gray area.
The gray area is so good!
Gray areas are awesome for those of us who were traumatized by the black and white.
Right now I still find Chrisitanity life-giving, and being part of a church life-giving (religious control was NOT part of my abusive childhood, thank goodness), yet I am deconverting hard right now from Christian supremacy--the idea that Christianity is necessarily better than any other belief system. My PCUSA church is not out-and-out evangelical, but it is evangelical-leaning, and on the conservative side of the denomination. On the plus side, I am able to be honest about my liberal theology there (there's an emphasis on freedom of conscience in presbyterianism). But being in leadership the past three years as an elder was hard, mostly because so much of the way we talk about WHY church matters is to say we need to convert everyone. Which...I think is not only unhelpful and a bad reason to be in church, but also, I think it breeds smug self-satisfaction -always- and leads to all kinds of abuse and toxic thinking. It's tough: this particular church is my extended family. My actual extended family was decimated by my toxic childhood--I really don't want to leave these aunties and uncles who I have so much history with especially since I am able to be myself there, even if I'm out of the "normal" theologically. Also, my husband is more conservative than I am and would not be comfortable in a truly universalist church. So! I stay, but feel the weariness of much of the religious language just not really meeting me where I am, but having the community absolutely fill in gaps and connect me. I wish it were easier to find like-minded people and for me to form community, but it's not.
I love this and I think it's so good that it feels life-giving to you. Krispin is in a similar spot, and I love that we can caveat and say "right now it feels good." Because that really, truly matters! And that's why we try and carve out some spaces like right here, because it IS NOT EASY.
oh, thanks for this. Yes, the 'right now' feels important. I have to remind myself that being part of my church (or any church) or a particular way of living out faith is -for now-, and I am called to change if that changes. Because clinging to this stuff because we 'have to' is just more of the same shit. It needs to be freely embraced, or not at all.
I just feel grateful for the fact that you’ve found some freedom, Danielle. Thank you for offering the same to us.
Also... I can relate to the sentiment that any movement against evangelicalism really feels like the same fundamentalism, just in the opposite direction. I feel weary to the rules altogether and I’m eager for a way to cultivate a broader vision of myself, the world and God. You aren’t alone there.
"My job currently is to refuse to believe or say anything in order to receive love, care, and attention" will probably become a sticky note all over my house.
One of the biggest differences between my childhood trauma and a lot of others is I didn't grow up with evangelical parents. I was taking myself (by walking or getting rides) to my church. They would ground me and regularly withhold church community from me, largely to minimize me coming in contact with adults who might get close enough to notice the abuse I was experiencing at home. I'm unsure how to feel about the fact that my parents attempt to keep me isolated through abusive means also let me have access to things like other denominations and a large bookcase of Jung, Vonnegut, and science. There are parts of the strict evangelical upbringing I saw up-close, but were never in my house - but wanted.
I'm with you, Amberlee--religion was not part of my abusive household (though my parents didn't mind me getting really into it). I'm grateful that God was not roped into the high-control whackadoodle dynamic of my family. It was already oppressive enough without religious abuse. And yes, I WANTED my parents to be "real" Christians and teach me how to be a "real" Christian. It has been confusing with my own kids to know how to invite (using Gina's word from above) them into faith while not pressuring them. (Which has resulted in them opting out. Which makes me sad but also glad that I did not cram it down their throats).
Yes! There was a longing for being in the Christian families around me. Now I know what I wanted was stability and faithfulness to love.
That sounds so complicated to unpack!
I really struggle to put my thoughts into words... so often when I read your words I feel understood and seen. I just resonate with this all so much. I started this process after my second child was born nearly 5 years ago and it was so lonely then. But feels less lonely now. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing this. It resonates so deeply with me. I left Christianity about 15 years ago (with a whisper not a bang) frustrated with my Christian college, no longer believing in a higher power, dealing with my parents' cancers, but I've had to go back the past few years and work through the religious trauma. I grew up like you did and I find myself thinking about something that happened to me as a kid that everyone thought was normal and just shouting "I was a child!" An instagram post a while back that shook me was like "Did your parents pray the devil out of you as a kid?"- the more I thought about this, the more I reckoned with the fact that I was a (autistic) toddler and perhaps invoking demons when I had a tantrum did more harm than good. Part of my personal struggle is that my parents are dead and I can't ever talk about this with them. It's a blessing because they didn't live to be Trumpers and I can hold out the hope that I would have convinced them to not be) but also there's a lot of anger there.
On learning of my son's ASD diagnosis, I started to realize that my parents both were on almost certainly on the spectrum, and my husband's father was too. My mom is still living.
I'm in this weird place of wanting my son to be accommodated and loved JUST AS HE IS and refusing to spend time around my mother who demands that her religious "worldview" infiltrate all the conversations, judges everything in black and white, and might be a Trumper, too. I will not accommodate her neurodiversity because of how hateful the manifestation of it is to me. I respect myself enough not to sit through her lectures (of course, she does not have theory of mind enough to understand that I don't agree with her). I haven't cut her off but I have made myself dramatically less available. Which means her several prayer groups are almost certainly praying for our relationship.
So what do we do with these high control parents if their high control stems from their autism?
You can let them be accountable for their actions and the relational distance their strident beliefs cause them. Even autistic people can do the hard work of healing their traumas/interrogating their worldviews (I am proof of that!). I think many times people can get so insular and family dynamics serve to perpetuate unhealthy beliefs and enmeshment. So one of the best things to do is set boundaries and honor yourself/your kids!
I’ve been wrestling with this question as well. A very religious, very controlling (when we were growing up) parent who is almost certainly on the spectrum. I really resonate with how you put the issue. What I’ve been slowly coming to realize is that I’m drawn to a lot of autistic people and enjoy them, yet I can’t say the same about this parent. It’s more an emotional immaturity on their part and narcissistic qualities they also embody. So we currently chat briefly on holidays about surface issues and that’s the extent of the relationship (I live halfway across the country). I’m guessing it’s more than just neurodiversity that has you not wanting to engage with your mom...
Anonymom I can totally relate to this. Several years ago my stepmother pointed out to me her hypothesis that my dad is likely on the spectrum. This is mostly not a terrible thing, and he's been, over the years, my more stable and more reliable parent. Both my parents are highly inflexible and this was hard for their relationship, for their parenting, and for me. I went home for the holidays this year and ended up having a very productive discussion about my son's autism with my stepmother. My (undiagnosed and uncurious autistic) dad did his best to check out of the whole thing (he was doing a puzzle!) When I mentioned that it runs in families and that I have some autistic traits as well he said (as he says of everything he doesn't like about me) "you must get it from your mother." Totally agree with DL that in that case, sadly, he reaps the relational distance that sows. My stepmother, on the other hand, was very open -- once you start looking through an autism lens, "it's everywhere!"
As for my mom -- I went no-contact with her shortly after our first child was born. This is an ongoing source of discomfort for me, and there's a lot of shame in estrangement, but I felt so judged, lectured, and shamed that I dissociated in her presence and couldn't retain the integrity I needed to parent. (It was when she told me I that swaddling my baby made me a Nazi that I realized this was not your normal grandmother-mother interaction.)
So yeah -- if they can't give you and your child the unconditional love you need, you are going to be spending your time mostly in other places. Which is sad for everyone.
My mom is not an evangelical but she does not hesitate to tell anyone who asks about our estrangement about my "mental health problems." I've made my peace with that.
I'm sorry to hear this. Yes, to the concept of sowing and reaping! And accepting emotional immaturity in a child, but as you all have said, not in an adult. (Accepting while saying "if you want to have and keep friends (one of HIS goals), then a useful strategy to gauge interest may be to listen for follow-up questions.")
I got this point in June of 2020. You describe so well how it feels. I had the full sad shower scene, like in a movie. I remember telling my non Christian coworker that I felt like I'd gotten out of a cult. This journey has been freeing and disorienting. I felt adrift for a long time, and often still do. After a long time, and reading about the things I'd been banned from reading like other religions, sexuality, etc; I eventually began experimenting with a small personal spirituality with my own little rituals that I don't have to tell anyone else about if I don't want to. I've recently found that deep inside my inner child still believes that she's going to heaven if God and Jesus is real. At this point in time, I don't intellectually believe that God is a person or hierarchical being, but she's still in there with deep faith and I really don't know what to do with her at the moment. But we'll see.
All that say, it has been and likely will be a life-long journey, but I don't regret it. With a sad smile, I hold a metaphorical flute of champagne to you with a sad smile as we grieve our past lives, our parents decisions, our decisions and forage ahead into the dark searching for our own lights. Cheers. Welcome to the club.
I love the sad shower scene image. It's so freaking emotional! I feel like a teenager in so many ways, and it has been a little fun to just let myself wallow and feel all the feels and listen to a bunch of sad indie music!!!!
Absolutely. I've been getting into the "secular music" I didn't listen to in my youth. Britney Spears has some good songs! Slim Shady is hilarious, and System of a Down is amazing and speaks to my angry soul. I didn't really rebel as a a teen and I feel like I'm getting it out now, but with the awkwardness also still having to be an adult and take care of my own kid.
This kindness and attention toward your inner child is really moving, Melissa. Thanks for sharing!